Regular church attenders - at what age do your children get to CHOOSE whether or not they come?

[roisin]

At my home church and in some other churches I've been in the 'usual' age has been about 11 or 12 when children are given the option by their parents whether or not to attend.

In our present church in the past 5 years the age has been 14, 15, or 16 from different families! I don't feel entirely comfortable with 'making' a child attend to this age.

Anyway ds1 is 10 - too young still yet to be allowed to stay home alone. But he is not a christian, he is an atheist, and has been consistently for about 7 years! Very occasionally he professes some slight belief, but not much and not for long. He also says he hates church, hates Sunday School, and doesn't see why he has to go and all his mates get to have a long lie-in.

He often plays-up at Sunday school too, and is a complete pain in the neck for the poor teachers. (It doesn't help that they are fairly right-wing, and ds1 is liable to question the statements they make.)

Obviously ds1 gets bollocked by me whenever specific incidents are reported to me.

Aaarrgghhh.... What to do for the best?

Stay at home with him?

Would it be possible for him to come along but be told that he must sit quietly and read a book or do homework?

I sympathise with you as he is to young to stay at home but it doesm't seem right to make him become involved with religious activities that he doesn't believe in.

DS1 stopped wanting to come at about 10 too. Luckily, DH, who doesn't "do" church services either (beleives in God but doesn't do the whole pomp and ceremony bit although attends the social events with us some of the time) was at home, so DS could stay with him.

Could you leave your DS with a neighbour, grandparent, friend or whatever?

take him along, but don't expect him to take an active part.

being able to sit sit and listen is a life skill. A knowledge of the King James Bible is a fantastic grounding! Knowing all the old hymns is invaluable in weddings in later life!

(can you spot what happened to me as a kid???? )

don't bollock him to discussing stuff, if they can debate with a 10 year old they should give up! Bollock him if he is rude or disruptive, but discussing stuff is invaluable.

I'm not at all happy with the idea that because he doesn't want to go, I would stay home with him. That's too much power and influence for a 10-yr-old IMO. Church is important to me, and he doesn't get to dictate my life at this age.

The problems with the other options are, I realise, the rest of the church; and how they might view it if ds1 starts sitting at the back of church with a book (he'd be ecstatic with this idea btw) or stop coming altogether. Normally I just do "what's right for us" and stuff what anyone else thinks. I'm not sure why I'm so bothered about this.

But I'm not sure whether 'making him go' will make him more or less likely to have anything to do with church in the future.

Could he not just sit with you, and read a book/crayons etc? That way he can opt out of Sunday School, be part of the family, and do his own thing too?

You shouldn't have to stop your religious practice to accomadate him. But by the same token you can't expect him to take an active part in a service that he doesn't believe in

. He is 10 not 10 months. He doen't have to be entertained every minute of the day.I wouldn't pander too much to him, give him the hymnal to work through, that s what I did! And it didn't do any long term harm.

And I can usually put my finger on biblical quotes quite easily which can be hand on times!

What denomination church is it? Would getting more involved encourage him?

In our church (RC) quite a few of the children his age are alter servers and some are invovled in reading the liturgy.

There is a children's liturgy which is divided inti 3 groups: pre-school, pre 1st communion (ie under 8), and KS2 age. Some of the older children could in theory get involved in the liturgy for the little ones.

Would he compromise by staying out of Sunday School with something appropriate to read - personally I don't think it would be on for a 10 year old to read his own choice of fiction in church. Perhaps something looking at the liturgy as literature, which woul be good educationally (agree with MartianBishop!) and can be encouraging for children who are rebelling against orthodoxy.

I think you should let him read a book etc and if other church members have a problem with it then tough really. If he's sitting quietly and not being disruptive then I don't think it's any of their business. Pushing him to be actively involved at his age is likely to entrench his atheist viewpoint (my POV too btw) and possibly set him against you in other areas as well. He needs to respect your right to practice religion but you and the other church members need to respect his right to a different view. Your church should tolerate him not actively participating because they welcome you to worship with them.

If you make him come he will stop going as soon as he can and never go back. What is wrong with empowering a ten year old anyway?

Are there an ante-rooms in your church, for instance a porch. I think it would be reasonable to have him sit there and wait for you, with your choice of reading material (something morally improving but not necessarily religious, or a school textbook perhaps).

I was a church rejector from a young age, but fortunately my Dad wasn't much of a church goer either so it was a good excuse for him to opt out and stay home with me. The compromise was that I did have to attend special occasions without sulking, like Christmas.

I got to choose at about 13, iirc.
Never went again.

sorry roisin, didn't read op properly.
That's a difficult one if he's not old enough to stay home alone.

pmsl at "something morally improving"
Church is huge so plenty of spaces for him to hide away somewhere and read fiction of his choice
I'm not sure what would count as 'morally improving' - Philip Pullman? Richard Dawkins? He's heavily into Stephen Hawking atm ...?
We have neither a hymnal nor the King James, so not much help there!

It's a Baptist Church btw, and probably doesn't help that dh is the minister, and I'm usually playing the piano!

Thanks for all the responses, I will consider pondering. I haven't yet asked dh what he thinks.

At what age do kids get the right to choose anything?

NEVER!

I had to keep going until I left home (18). I also had to attend religious instruction classes run by the church as I was going to a non-RC school.

10 is getting a bit old for Sunday school. I agree with the idea of finding him something else to do, taking a more active part, if he'll co-operate. If that's not possible then bringing him along and finding him somewhere to sit and read quietly is the only other option I can see.

What does your minister say, have you tried discussing it? Ministers need to be able to engage with all ages, including tweens and teens.

Even if he doesn't believe. It's nice to be able to sit there in church and meditate. You don't have to get involved, but just savour the peacefullness of it all. Everyone should learn how to meditate, it's very healthy.

He cannot be left by himself whilst you go to church so he'll just have to make the most of it. 10 is such an age where he really ought to behave himself. Playing up during Sunday School is not on. He can stay during Mass with you and learn a bit of self control.

We have been firm up to age 14. For my eldest (15) he has to come to church, unless he has a football match. He wasn't allowed to join the team last year because most of the matches clash. If he can get to any of the service then he has to come. If he doesn't make it to the morning service, he goes to the evening one with me.

I'd let him sit in a quiet corner and read, observe, etc. I wouldn't send him to SS either - I'd let him sit with you if he wants to try that.

I attend a Baptist church and under the circumstances, where it is not possible for him to sit with you I would say let him find a quiet corner and read whatever he likes. Most people in the congregation would not understand Dawkins or Pullman, let alone Stephen Hawking. This is a free spirit, loved by God, His precious child and he needs nurture, not censure.

Some interesting comments here

We actually have 'Sunday School' up to the age of 16 or so. (Some stay til about 18 actually.) They don't call it SS, they call it bible class.

Dh says it may be possible for ds1 to move up to the next class, as the activities may suit him better; and the staff there may find it easier to cope with his reasoned debate. (Unusually, he is the only child in his school year.)

MaryBS - Dh is the Minister, and he's well able to engage with ds1. But our brand of encouraging our children to think logically, and reason independently has been a bit of a shock to they system to some at church!

I don't admonish him for disagreeing, but I do tell him off if he's been rude or has been mucking about.

Thinking about it over dinner and the washing-up: what made a 3 year old into a paid up atheist?

Roisin - I would move him up a class, see how he gets on. Sounds like either he's not being challenged or he's not getting the answers he needs.

10 is young to be rebelling, and I wish you the best of luck. It must be hard being the minister's son.

Our vicar has a son of 14, and although he isn't always there at services, when he is allowed to engage with the worship, he does a really good job. He did a fantastic job of "visual prayers" on the computer, where we pray for the images we see. He also plays the drums, and in some of the "all age" services, he's been able to do this, or take part in role plays, where he's been able to act out a part (usually that of the rebel - but hey, he's there!). I think the trick with the young is to make it relevant.

Oh and our congregation has, in the space of 3 years, moved from one that is mainly elderly, to one which is packed full of families, including 20 children in Sunday school and about 10-15 in the 10-16 age group who regularly attend and LEAD worship!

Change churches, to find one that is more relevant and appealing for him - it may be the class that's unsuitable??