Christian prayer and chat thread Open to all

[Dutchoma]

The old thread was nearly full, so here is a new one. Oldies and newbies, chat or prayer, all welcome.

Praying especially for MHD and JanFeb’s daughter.
Also praying for all who are preparing Holy Week/Easter services.

Hi everyone! Belated Easter wishes to all.

We had an Easter zoom service. We are only allowed very limited numbers in church so I thought it would be polite to leave the seats for people who can't use zoom. Also, I like to sing (although we didn't sing Thine be the Glory).

I've also had a brush with some evangelicals in the past which left me running back to the more familiar Church of Scotland where I had grown up. I was told that because they had the holy spirit and were falling over backwards and talking in tongues they were better Christians than the ones at other churches (including the Church of Scotland). I felt there was a huge pressure to fit in and fall backwards and when I found myself wondering how many people were faking it I knew I couldn't go back.

I also went to one of their services when I was at a low ebb (my mum had just died suddenly and prematurely) and was just left stone cold and incredulous while everyone started talking in tongues, bursting into tears and being helped out of the church, etc. I was offered a bereavement counsellor, a bunch of new flat mates ( I was sofa surfing) all within the space of an hour . I could see why it could be compelling but I felt it was all a bit too much and never went back.

Hope you still got something out of the zoom service @applesandpears33 😊

The zoom service was great thanks. It is good that we can still have that option but I am looking forward to being back in church in person.

Like all of you I have real reservations and worries about the toxicity of certain branches of the evangelical church. When they relate it to prosperity, to wealth and health, to claiming your healing etc I think it is so far away from anything God intended and anything that Jesus modelled - for any of you who know my writing you'll know how much I despise that whole prosperity thing and think it is deeply flawed and turns people away. I hate anything elitist or 'holier than thou' in tone.

However, I'm a bit pissed off that the term evangelical has been turned to this kind of flavour. It simply means telling others about the good news and I think that's what most Christians like to do in different ways. Sadly though it's become a euphemism for forceful conservatism and that's so far away from its original etymology.

I always used the term 'open evangelical' to describe where I am, but I actually could use many more descriptors - charismatic, contemplative. But not conservative. My experience of faith does include some of those things you express some concern about eg experiences of the Holy Spirit and have been very much not faked in my experience, but probably where I differ from those you've had experience of in these things is that I do not think that Christians must do these things to be Christian. I think that we are made differently and respond to God in different ways - much as Paul said in his letters - some speak in tongues, some have the gift of hospitality etc etc. When these things are co opted to become the yardstick by which faith is measured then faith is turned into an oppressive system.

So what I'd ask I guess is that we try not to throw out certain things because of human beings having messed them up as humans are wont to do - instead, to embrace the mystical and the possibilities, to know God works in a thousand ways, to be open to God working in new ways in us. I hope I am always open to that and indeed have been surprised in the past when I've found God working in me through things I struggled with before eg more traditional elements of faith, high church etc. I went through a process where I came to realise that worship wasn't all about me and my preferences but about my attitude to God, and within that breaking down of my own wants and my decision to make worship about giving to God I found a whole new freedom.

So I guess I'm a whole mess of labels, and that includes the charismatic side of things - but doesn't stop me from getting angry about the abuse of those things and on behalf of those of you who have experienced pain and confusion because of those things. I think Paul had a real point when he talked about order in churches and told them to get over themselves and calm down

But I've experienced beauty, awe and mystery in the more charismatic side of faith, and those are things I'd never lay aside because they are a bit weird.

For me it's about finding balance while opening ourselves up to a God who does all sorts of stuff in all sorts of ways, and knowing that's okay.

Hope that makes some sort of sense :)

Gosh Rafa I think I'd definitely have walked out in that bit. I have actually walked out before of a sermon about healing and how we block God through sin and lack of faith.
I must admit I do appreciate my fairly moderate C of E church, with it's lovely open edges to things of the spirit, but with no coercion in sight.

Makes a lot of sense MHD.. I have had to come out of three different churches because of feeling diminshed as a Christian and co-ercion. (You need to raise your hands or you’re not a REAL Christian etc). Maybe I am too intolerant, I don’t know. I am experiencing a great deal of warmth and love in the (not so) new church, which is a fairly high CoE parish church. It’s coming up for three years now. After over 40 years in a non conformist church I find that the liturgy is more important to me than the teaching.

Just at the moment it is stripped away to bare essentials and maybe that is a good thing. But I long to get back to singing together.

There's been reports that we’ll possibly be allowed to sing indoors from June 21st.... I keep wondering, are they going to specify “quiet singing” or similar, otherwise can you imagine the urge I think many of us will have, to absolutely belt out the likes of Thine be the Glory?!

Thanks for posting that@Madhairday. I know I need to stay open minded and there is much in life that is unexplained and mysterious. For me those are private and personal spiritual experiences, feeling hope , closeness to deceased persons and maybe the presence of a greater, organising being. Maybe I’m too English, but I have no need to go and speak in tongues about it! As to any hint of coercion and promises of being rewarded with greater wealth in this life, and I run a mile.

I'm feeling very reassured by the responses on this thread. My past is Methodist/low COfE and I'm liberal so maybe that's given me a certain view on things, I don't know. For a long time after uni I wished I could just have God without the church but I know that's not how it's supposed to be.

There were a few things that put me off the CU as it was but I do think it's horses for courses and I know people who really found a home there and had their faith enriched by the community but for me there were things like (I'm sorry this might sound like a vent)

• on the way into meetings being stopped by someone with a clipboard asking you if you were born again (in a certain way) like church bouncers, really put me off
• more worship of a certain charismatic 'Evangelical' (but not actually evangelical because non-followers were non-priorities) lecturer who all the girls fell over for (despite him being twice their age)
• non-stop talk about Richard Dawkins (who cares really)
• not being allowed to eat lunch with our non-CU flatmates and if you did they would come and get you to go sit with them instead.
• when stating any 'liberal' opinion being told "oh you just don't know the heart of God". Thanks for that

Bleugh. Thanks for the therapy. I need to get that out. This is almost AIBU, so am I?

Goodness, @coffeecup88 that all sounds very toxic and insular, quite the opposite to the way Jesus went about things. Ugh! I'd have run a mile too!

Oma I'm so glad you've found comfort and belonging in your church now. Churches should never be a place people are told they should perform a certain way or do certain things - they should be places of safety. Places of challenge yes - challenge to be more like Jesus, to give more away, to feed the hungry and to pursue Gods holiness, but petty insistence that people should all raise their hands or whatever seem to me so very far from the heart of the gospel. I do raise my hands, speak in tongues etc and I love it and it is freedom for me but I have absolutely no expectation that anyone else should, all I hope is that all feel welcome in our church, whatever background. We do find many are thej liberated by things of the spirit and that's fantastic, but it's never, ever coerced.

So sad at what some 9f you have been through with this. It's no wonder Christians get a bad rep at times.

Thanks @Madhairday . I agree it wasn't healthy and wasn't what I'd previously experienced in a
Church community. I was young and just thought as I could not believe what they believed (views on homosexuality that sort of thing) that I just wasn't Christian and I was treated accordingly. The ones I've kept in touch with I'll never have a conversation about faith with as I'll always be inferior. Nevermind 🤷‍♀️

I'm interested in the speaking in tongues and the more charismatic side but I think it's obvious when it's genuine. And for me authenticity is everything.

I got ill in a service once and my faith just went through the floor. I was desperate for someone, anyone, to help. I was directed to the rector ("evangelical who really gets it") who berated me for not passing alpha or beta (if you didn't pass you weren't welcome) and not being baptised via full immersion as an adult (I was baptised as an adult). He said I and only I was responsible for my loss of faith and gave me a long list of "horrific" sins. Which I won't repeat here. I was devastated. He got me to burn my list of sins and beg for forgiveness which I did. I felt better for about five minutes. Then he got really nasty with me, and the vicar of the church I went to. Demanding I did alpha, beta and "passed", that I went to every service, prayer meeting and all bible studies - I couldn't possibly do all that so he said that was the devil speaking.

Bit of background, I wasn't baptised as a baby and went to a CofE school where I was called devils child because I wasn't baptised and was left handed - I wasn't allowed to sit with thrn others in church in case I was struck by lightening. Yes, horrific stuff.

Going back to the rector. He then decided to blame the vicar for me losing my faith. There was no understanding, by either of them, of the difficulties I was facing with my conditions suddenly being disabling, being on my own and at that time not allowed benefits. No one understood.

Eventually I poured all this out to a Benedictine nun at one of my yearly retreats after she told me I could just let everything out (the other lady staying there worked for a Catholic bishop and loathed the Catholic Church but couldn't leave so would go to this nun twice a year and rant and I mean RANT) so I knew she could take it. Her advice?

Read your bible. Preferably the psalms. Don't worry about daily services or organised prayer, even doing the breviary, just speak to Him. Everyone in the church is human including vicars, priests, nuns and everyone has struggled with their faith. Our Lord became someone I suddenly felt understood. I do say organised prayers now and do services at home, and yes there are times when I cry and scream and vent.

She helped me find my way back to faith. I'm forever grateful. And to MHD who pointed me towards digitalnun on social media so I could continue being a part of a Benedictine community albeit online.

I tried another church and they had an arch for people to go under to get cured of their sins which were causing them to be ill - I walked out.

As many here know I lost my godmother to sucide a few years ago. It remains devastating for me. A strong part of that was her being on her own, and no one understanding, most in our church being married, others not being ill and not understanding that choice. She ended our friendship over me not understanding being ill and alone and refused to engage with me (a source of pain to me), she didn't understand why she couldn't just continue getting high rate PIP and ESA and only work one day a week as she had done before when living with her parents who had recently died - put simply dwp reassessed her after her cancer went into remission as being able to work full time, she wanted to continue doing all the things she found helpful to her mental health like choir, prayer groups, short breaks and retreats but didn't realise that when alone you must pay all the bills, you're responsible for getting and cooking your own food, you can't get out then no one will do it for you and the hobbies she liked were luxuries not needs.

I guess the point I'm making is there needs to be more understanding of single and disabled people in churches.

I agree the term "evangelical" now points towards certain type of Christian and like a pp said we are all called to be evangelical.

Opps. That turned into an essay. Sorry. Meant to press preview!!!
Sorry.

Yes, thanks MHD. Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence and I don't think of all Evangelicals in one category. The ones I had a brush with were pretty toxic though. In addition to there being a lot of pressure to fit in and experience the holy spirit in the way they wanted you to they were also into very conspicuous tithing where the elders would walk up to the front of the church and throw down brown envelopes that were stuffed full of something. I mean, how much space does a cheque take up? Looking back, there was lots about that church that felt a bit off. They seemed to target people who were vulnerable as possible members and would want people to go to so many bible studies etc that you didn't have many spare evenings left in a week. It was an independent church and with hindsight was perhaps a bit cult like. It affected me a lot at the time and many years later the experience has left me still feeling a bit bruised.

I also went to a pentecostal church a few times where people were talking in tongues. The difference there was that the people felt very accepting and there was absolutely no pressure to join in.

I have wondered why it is that we don't experience the holy spirit in the same way as the early church did. It is something I don't really understand. Maybe I will understand it more in time.

Sorry for the rant. I suppose it is a reminder that we all have to be careful how we treat other people and to try and show love wherever possible.

Blimey @Becca19962014 - that's dreadful! You were really out through it. I've been through similar myself, but not to the degree you have.

Thank heavens you met that wonderful nun. To me she embodies the difference between "religion" and "faith". Religion can so easily get caught up in rules, regulations and hierarchies, and from that we too often get "I am right" "You are wrong" "Do as I say or God will punish you AND IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!" It can happen in any denomination and in any religion.

Faith just needs you, and God, and the knowledge that you can meet Gd anywhere - the hard bit is learning to be open to the divine, and trusting yourself and the Godself. (And she was right about the psalms - all of human emotion, good and bad, is in them, and so is God's boundless love and forgiveness.)

Sorry @Becca19962014 that all sounds so hard.

Crikey Becca, you've been through the mill. There's lots to think about in your post.

I can also identify with something @coffecup88 said. I also have liberal views on many topics but tend to keep my thoughts to myself as I know there are some people who would judge me for it and think I wasn't quite as good a Christian. Becca is right though - no one is immune from messing up, whether they are a minister, vicar, priest, church elder etc. Why should it matter to me what someone else thinks? And yet it does. Perhaps it is pride.

Gosh I'm so sad for some of these experiences and how they've affected you. Becca that's just incredibly awful, I feel physically sick to read of how some churches speak to people and spiritually abuse them. Humans are flawed but churches must do better than this. Any church where there is cult of personality in any sense at all is completely off target in my book.

Most of you know I'm in church leadership and married to a vicar. He's about the furthest from these other leaders described here as you could imagine. He detests any form of coercion or putting himself forward. He would be appalled by that tithing thing. I'm so glad to know him and so many other men and women who reflect the love and teachings of Jesus in their leadership. So thankful for them. Becca I'm so glad you've found a place of comfort with digital nun and others similar. I love her writing. I think it was niminy who used to post here who introduced me to her.

I do think we need to leave breadth for people's views when it comes to the Bible, but what that must never entail is a sense that we are more right than others or that they should be forced to think our way. I'm not comfortable with all liberal/progressive teaching to be honest, and equally not comfortable at all with most conservative teaching. I'm a happy moderate - albeit card carrying charismatic one. I'll sit on the fence, raise my hands in abandoned worship and then read a bit of Julian of Norwich. That'll do me

Thankyou for the support.
Sorry it turned into an essay!

Is alpha the alpha course? What is beta? Assuming the follow up...and how do you pass or fail? So worrying the idea on failing is put upon you.

Yes it's the alpha course, beta was (might still be) the follow up. You passed if you got the holy spirit during the weekend away and spoke in tongues apparently . I didn't do it but know people who did and having failed weren't invited to join the church.

That church felt very much like an exclusive club. You could go of you weren't in the club of course but you'd be ignored by the welcome committee and rector on leaving.

Very odd to me but many found it to be helpful.

That rector is long gone to some other area now, I was so pleased when I found out.

Gosh @Becca19962014 I'm not sure what to say to that. I would have found like very traumatic.

I had an experience on an alpha course (uni again) that was very confusing. I thought the Holy Spirit was supposed to bring peace and not total terror, I ended up just having a horrible panic attack in the bit at the end. I remember being told we should stand at some point to affirm or receive or something and just knowing that God had welded by bum to the chair. I felt strongly God was saying no and I was so relieved.

Sorry @Madhairday you probably can explain more about the pentocostal element? I don't think I'm cut out for it at all.

Actually I'm just rereading that post and feeling like a total failure. Maybe it wasn't right because I didn't trust the others there.