Do you struggle with the 'rules'?

[marmite92]

I know it sounds strange, but I've been thinking a lot about religion lately as my mum passed away last month in her 50s, and I am struggling to come to terms with it. I'd describe myself as agnostic but do pray sometimes, but my auntie has a very strong faith and feels comforted by it.

The trouble is, when I think about the rules in Christianity it worries me, because there are things I can't undo, and things I don't want to adhere to. For example, I've been married for a short amount of time which was a rushed mistake (mainly due to the diagnosis of my mum), so I'm divorced and I know that's frowned upon. I'm also very liberal, and I cannot believe things like being gay is wrong, that having sex unless married is terrible etc. I also struggle to think we are all born in sin, doesn't make sense to me.

So I guess my question is, am I allowed to feel like I can explore this if I know I will cherry pick what I like and don't like? How do you deal with the conflict? Sorry for the ramblings!

You certainly have a right to express your (remarkably patronising) view of @Homestayer’s post. Whether your position, once you have expressed it, deserves to be respected is quite another matter.

Based on the quite remarkable mental gymnastics I frequently see Christians engage in when trying to explain why their omnipotent creator appears to not be capable of a great deal, while requiring constant human worship, I would say that at least some Christian minds should be rather stronger, if anything, if only from all the exercise.

And let me point out that your “liberal’ views in no way express the entirety of Christian belief. I have lived the suppression enforced upon women and girls by one of its main sects. Because it’s not the version you personally espouse in no way mitigates the reality of that suffering.

@marmite92 I am very sorry that you have lost your mum, especially as she was so young. This must be such a distressing and dark time for you. You have asked a perfectly reasonable question and I can't think that having pp's arguing over it and taking little account of your feelings can be helping you. If you want to explore your feelings within a Christian context then you have every right to do so. Do you feel drawn towards going to sit in a church and letting the peace and quiet surround you? If you cry or are angry that's understandable. The bible and "rules " are significant but finding your own relationship with God and remembering that those whom we love, and who love us never truly leave us is matters most.

@marmite92 I am sorry to hear about your mum. I lost my mum 10 months ago, I was 34. Its hard and it sucks. I will pray for you if you dont mind that.
I am a Christian, as was my mum, and I take great comfort in knowing she is with God, and that I will see her again when I die. I know she has passed from this life into eternal life.
In terms of 'rules' as others have said, Christianity has many denominations. I personally believe this is one of its strengths. Different ways of worshipping/ types of services and different views on how the bible should be interpreted as well as how to live that out, yet all those denominations are following Jesus, who ultimately is the centre of the Christian faith.
There are online services at the moment, as we obviously cannot meet on Sundays in person. On youtube- one of my favourites is SoulSurvivor Watford, another of my favourites is Causeway Coast Vineyard and they are also streaming services.

@Wearywithteens
Whenever I am ridiculed because of my faith, I always think of Christ's words in NIV Matthew 5 v 11-12 :
Blessed are you who are insulted because of me....Rejoice and be glad, for great will be your reward "

Meadow helpfully demonstrating another characteristic of the religious; Playing the perpetual victim.

Nobody has ridiculed you. They have criticised your religion.

Christianity (or any other religion for that matter), is the last thing the OP need right now.

Thst is just your opinion @Homestayer.
If you prefaced your points with "I think that...." rather than stating things as fact, it would be easier to discuss with you.
And I think that you know your tone is one of ridicule.

And I think that you know your tone is one of ridicule

I haven't interpreted it as such, but even if it was, so what. As someone cleverer than me once said, if you don't want your beliefs ridiculed, then stop believing ridiculous stuff.

There's nothing untoward on this thread. What you see as ridicule, most would see as healthy dissent.

"Stop believing ridiculous stuff"
You know for a fact that it is ridiculous ?
Thankfully my atheist friends in RL are not that arrogant and patronizing and we can have good, decent discussions about faith. I'm afraid it is not possible to discuss with someone who knows everything.
So I'Il leave you to your superior knowledge.

@marmite92
Sorry about the derailment of your thread.
Grieving for a loved one is always hard.I hope you find the inner peace that you are looking for.

I was troubled my many of the same thoughts & conflicts.

Eventually I decided that the cognitive dissonance inherent in identifying as a Catholic while viewing many of the beliefs, dogmas, prejudices and practices of the religion as, at best, ridiculous and at worst harmful was irresolvable. I stopped practicing religion completely then renounced belief in deities. I have been a complete atheist since my late teens.

Ok. I've only skim read the thread. But here's my thoughts.

For me I don't focus on 'the rules'.
As a Christian this is all about my relationship with Jesus, which is lived out within a community of believers.

I'm trying to become the best person I can be, which is like Jesus. He helps me to do that.
My family, the church, help me do that.

So I don't really think about the rules, first. I think how can I be like Jesus?

Some things I find easier, some things I find harder. It is useful for me to have some basic rules to help me get started on the stuff I find harder.

Do not murder other people is a start, I find that quite easy, but loving them to the point where I give up my my wants, needs, time, finances, comfort etc for them is harder.

Fasting I find really hard. My church gives some rules to help people like me who struggle with that. So I try to follow them, some times I fail. But I know that succeeding with those rules is just the start of a journey, the actual goal is far further.

My church encourages us (badly) to give to the poor. (Actually we dont have rules about this so it might be a bad example) I'm not very good at that. But Jesus wants us to 'sell all our possessions and give to the poor'. I'm a long way from that. But I can start the journey by throwing a couple of items in the food bank, maybe next week I'll manage to give a couple of quid to the homeless shelter as well.

Some rules I used to find hard, but now they are easier, because I understand the 'why' of them better. Or I have realised that although I don't 'get' a certain thing, that actually it is really not that major in my life.

The important thing is that relationship with Jesus. As I grow in that the 'rules' fall into place. And if I struggle with some forever, then so be it. I'm not going to be perfect in this life, but I'll understand in the next life.

If its christianity you want to explore, no-one expects you to be perfect and understand everything at the beginning. It's the journey of a life time. Feel free to dabble at the edges, or jump right in. We know we are not perfect (Or if we think we are, then that's proof we're not!). No one is should be expecting you to be anything you aren't.

You know for a fact that it is ridiculous?

Replace the word "god" with "invisible magic man in the sky". Do that for a month, in every discussion you have. By the end, you'll agree it's ridiculous.

Depending on one's definition of 'god' of course.....

Taking the starting position that god is 'invisible magic man in the sky' is..... problematic, and already assumes a viewpoint.

If I did that, then I wouldn't believe. But I don't believe god IS 'invisible magic man in the sky'.

🙄

Go on then Catina, I'll bite.

What's your definition of God that just happens to conveniently get round all rational objections so of course must be true?

I don't have 'a definition' as such, it was more playing devil's advocate.
But, if we ARE playing, I don't think god is a man, for a start, nor 'in the sky'.
Invisible?.... probably.
I envisage God as more a sort of 'force', or 'power' (though those words aren't right - 'presence' is perhaps more accurate - I'm thinking aloud here), that is everywhere, in all and through all, a bit like air, I suppose.
And as for rational objections, I know there are many and no, I can't answer them all (the eternal 'if God is in charge / good / all powerful, why does he allow suffering / people to die / why do bad things happen to good people, being one), but in my own experience I have seen things, had people pray for me about things that I've not told them about, that, for me, can't be explained any other way outside of the christian framwork.
Had I been brought up elsewhere, I might well be Muslim, or Jewish, or Hindu, but I wasn't, and at the moment, the most 'rational' explanation for those things fits with what I beleive to be true about God.
It's not 'rational' in a scientific sense, no, but maybe that's all part of the mystery.

And I did chuck it all out and walk away from it all for a long time (15 years, in fact) but ended up back going to church fairly recently - not becuase of any trauma or grief or 'life crap', but because I felt I wanted to. I can't explain it any better than that, and that in itself is possibly irrational, but I'm happy with 'irrational' at the moment.

Take care.

Invisible?.... probably.

That's the trouble, the invisible and the non existent look so much alike.

Like 'love', or dreams, or 'the minds eye', or deja vu, or people claming to have had a previous life in the middle ages, or intuition, or a 'sixth sense', you mean?!

Love, dreams, deja vu are all easily inexplicable and understood phenomon.

People remembering past lives etc not so much.

Funny how nobody was ever a peasant or a slave in a past life, they were always kings, queens or other famous people from history. Almost like it's all bollocks.

It might well all be bollocks. As might religion - whichever one you follow (or don't). If it is, it is.

My experience leads me to think otherwise, but I'm open minded enough to acknowledge it could all be rubbish. If so, fair enough. I don't feel my life is worse for believing. If it were, I'd stop.

Each to their own.

@Catinabeanbag.
I agree with everything you say. I, too left the faith for many years but just felt something huge was missing from my life (the God shaped hole I think it's called !)
Although I don't believe it is, I, too, am prepared to admit it may be a load of bollocks, but what I do know is I've had a much happier and more fulfilled life believing in it.

Hi @marmite92 I have been giving your thread some thought and praying for you and the soul of your dm. It's a tough lot in life both to die so young and to lose your mum so young. I'm very sorry.

I'd encourage you to keep praying (I know you say you do so occaisionally). Pray to God to look after your mum, keep her close with Him in heaven and to reunite you with her one day. Also to ask Him to be with you and to give you strength and guide you to grow in faith, love and understanding of the Lord. You may feel silly but it can't hurt and it does help!

As for conflicts and "rules" I think you have to tune that out. Forget about it. It's hard enough to rediscover religion and spirituality without trying to take everything on board. Relationship with God is your first priority. Doing your best to do good for others is your next priority. The "rules" you will eventually come to an accomodation with. This does not mean you need to change your current views on divorce, homosexuality and sex before marriage (which I agree with you btw).

I came back to Catholicism after 25 years away and at first I couldn't reconcile the faith with my liberal views and found all the sin stuff and dogma to be from another era and not really relevant to me. But I still felt Catholic and I had a strong feeling I needed faith. My uncle died and my dad had a stroke but survived. I realised that God will still be there for me even when I have nothing else. I felt like something dragged me unwillingly back into the church and I started to take it seriously. I read about Christianity and the bible. Questioned everything. I pray lots. I found I'd been missing so much. I felt sadness for all those years living away from God. Anyway, one year on from that bombshell, I feel much more settled in my faith.

I'd say its worth starting on the journey. Start with prayer , that's easy right? Online church could be an easy way to 'try before you buy', you don't even have to leave home. You can find what you like. After lockdown if you are still interested visiting church near you, try and find one which suits you.

You can always ask questions on the MN religion board as there are people of all faiths and denominations willing to help. Try and ignore the nastiness and just take what positivity you can from it.

Hi marmite92, I don't think I can give you any answers but I am in a similar boat to you, although a little older.

My dad died unexpectedly last month and my mum is terminally ill, and I have found myself drawn back to the church. I grew up Catholic and my dad had a very strong faith, maybe this is a way of feeling closer to him. I believed until my late teens/early 20s when I just drifted away. I would say I became agnostic rather than atheist.

I live in a country that was overwhelmingly Catholic, where the church had enormous power over society and there was little separation between church and state. There were many abuse scandals in the 90s and in general many priests and nuns (though certainly not all) behaved in a cruel manner and were lacking in compassion.

Society has changed, and in recent years we voted for legalisation of gay marriage and reform of abortion laws. I supported both, as I believe it right to show compassion to people rather than judge them. I have never considered abortion myself and hope I would never have to, but I haven't walked in the shoes of a woman who needs it in a desperate situation.

I live with my partner, who I will marry in the not too distant future. I had another relationship before that which didn't work out.

ZenNudist I find your post really interesting. I don't regret the choices I made that go against the church's teaching, but I believe any of these rules were manmade and come from a different time. Jesus was far more concerned with loving one another and practising social justice, which resonates with me.

Can I take communion, or do I need to go to confession? How is confession valid if I don't regret my choices? I do 'feel' Catholic but find it all very hard to reconcile.

Should read many of these rules were manmade.

Thank you @ZenNudist that was such a lovely post, I do pray as it gives me a small sense of peace but I often think I don't think there's someone listening on the other end. It feels like such a long life ahead of me without my mum who was my best friend and I'm finding it so hard to imagine feeling happy again.

So sorry @Cherrycee about your dad, I wouldn't wish this pain on anyone regardless of age. I agree with you I think they are man made and reflective of society at that time, it just makes it hard to see how you can fit faith into modern times and still be liberal and progressive. I do feel regret for getting married and making that mistake, we split up within months because he instantly changed and went back on a lot of things and I felt incredibly trapped and realised I would never have married him if my mum didn't have cancer, but she completely supported us splitting up and I actually moved back home and got to spend the last few months of her life with her and we have some wonderful memories from that time because as much as she had cancer she wasn't ill if that makes sense, she died from a complication very quickly.

but I've punished myself enough about that that I've moved on. But still, if I met someone now I would still have sex before marriage because in all honestly I've been completely put off marriage, but does that mean I'm knowingly breaking those rules? It all seems so arbitrary to me

marmite92 It's lovely that you were able to have that time with your mum, and that you'll have lots of good memories to look back on (I know it's hard now when it's still so raw).

I think there are lots of people who found that their partners changed after they got married, whether that's after a few months or several years. There are lots of valid reasons why relationships end. Nobody should be judged or punished, we're all just human beings trying our best.