Advice from other Christians: conversations about homosexuality

[bathsh3ba]

I work in a very 'woke' environment and it feels like as soon as I reference being Christian, I am jumped on with criticisms of Christianity being homophobic. I never proselytise or evangelise at work, I guess some of my views come across as different but I only give them if directly asked. By references to being Christian I mean e.g mentioning I had been to church or Bible Group when asked about my evening/weekend.

Does anyone else get this and what do you say? I usually say Christians have very different views on it but I believe God has bigger things to worry about and Jesus told us to love everyone, which is what I try to do. But they keep on about what I think and the honest answer is I don't know, there are so many viewpoints that I tend to just leave it to God and try to be nice to everyone!

I just think being less than transparent or honest about the original beliefs of your chosen religion is probably not quite as ethical as one would expect from a positive revision of a religion.

But are people expected to denounce Britishness because of its original beliefs? I'm not sure how far back you would like me to go, but let's go with the Crusades, Henry VIII's desecration of the churches for personal financial gain, the entire history of the British empire, the ethnic cleansing of [insert quite a high number of peoples here], the oppression of [insert quite a high number of faiths, languages and cultures here], the fact that women have only had the vote for 102 years, the fact that homosexuality was only legalised in 1967, the fact that marital rape legally didn't exist until 1991 - I could literally go on all day.

Lots of this can apply to a number of countries (not many though).

My point is that there is literally NO cultural affiliation that is older than about 50 years that is free of objectionable original beliefs. Just basic stuff like "women aren't as clever as men" can be applied to literally every society until about our generation.

No British person is unaware of the things I listed above. No Christian is unaware of the problematic history of their faith.

But should be expected to be okay with being called out on being British by non British colleagues at work, and asked to explain the atrocities of the British Empire while your other non-British colleagues look on smugly?

The OP shouldn't have to defend her faith at work, EVER.

Oh now I feel bad @CrossLesbian !

Lol, don't feel bad. Your advice to the OP was good, I had just been responding g to the wider conversation that had inevitably sprung up.

I completely agree with you - it's not the OPs responsibility to explain or excuse the bad things about Christian beliefs or behaviour, in the past or present, she is responsible only for her own actions.

Can we please dump the word 'wokesters'? and stop generalising about them, if we don't want to be generalised ourselves?

In your place, OP, I'd simply say that I am not homophobic, and nor are any Christians that you know. And if they persist, say that there are some Chriistian teachings and attitudes that you agree with, and some that you don't. And if they still go on, say they're trying to generalise in way that they wouldn't (and shouldn't) generalise about another group, eg Muslims, or even gay people.

You're actually making me quite uncomfortable and targeted with how you bring up my faith and expect me to defend it so often. It's not my job to be a spokesperson for Christianity through the ages. I thought work was a safe space.

Ignore my second paragraph in my post above. This is so much better.

I don’t feel ok, as a Muslim, to be dragged into your argument. I feel like we are vulnerable in society and already have a lot of prejudice to deal with so don’t point the bullies towards us. Thanks!

Well, she's not, is she? She's saying it would be rightly unacceptable to go after a Muslim colleague because of one aspect of Islam that not every Muslim believed anyway, so it really should be the same for any other belief system. She was being positive towards Islam, not dragging it.

I’m directing this at pp who advised OP to say that not OP. To clarify.

Yes LesbianWitch I’m aware of what you’re saying. But from my point of view as a person who the might be referring to, it’s not ok. For reasons that are for another discussion on another thread.

Hope a simple Mumsnetty “no” would do it.

AmbitiouslyFit, oh, see what you're saying now, and fair enough actually.

OP I sympathize though , that does feel like harassment.

How about “Is this an accusative question or a curious one?”, if he says “curious”, say “I think you might need a trip to church then” and laugh it off.

Just don’t get defensive because that wil open the doors to some unprofessional debates which will raise more and more questions.

If he persists, just put on a serious thinking face , hmmmm... and pull up your phone, and say: “shall I text your number to the priest and tell him to call you for some questions ?”

@LesbianWitch - yes they do own that they are being selective but argue that every single Christian is selective in what parts of the Bible they adhere to and which they choose to gloss over. That's human nature. No two Christians share identical beliefs.

Just say you don't discuss religion or politics at work. And then don't.

milliefiore, I'd like to meet them. I walked away from the whole shebang because I couldn't reconcile the homophobic bits, and all the progressive attempts to do so just seemed to be glossing and spinning the uncomfortable truth.

But if you know gay Christians who are honest that they've made a new version with just the comfier bits of the faith, then I would love to chat with them. There are definitely things I miss about it.

Shamelessly place marking because this thread is actually rather informative!

Tell them you don't want to talk about your religion and move on.

Only fundamentalists take the Old Testament as literal truth. And it is incorrect of the PP who claimed the first five books of the OT were written by the same person - there are three different authors in Genesis alone, and two different creation myths described within it, as the ancient Jews had been passing down an oral tradition folk tale for centuries before it was ever written down, and they felt it had to be included even though it clashed with their more “modern” version at the time.
Christians (obviously) follow the teaching of Christ. Who never spoke a single word against gays, rescued a woman about to be stoned for adultery, illegally healed people on the Sabbath, and regularly clashed with the Jewish religious authorities of his day.
I regularly attend my local Church of Scotland. My minister was actually on the national committee that approved gay ministers. We are a very inclusive church, and see no conflict of interest between worshipping God and welcoming gay congregants.
Aggressive atheists often use homophobia as a pathetic “gotcha” to try and discredit our beliefs. Frankly I wouldn’t bother engaging your work colleagues in discussion, OP - they are unlikely to be asking out of genuine interest and a spirit of enquiry, but more likely looking to score points and virtue signal their wokeness.
I would simply remind them that the church is one of the biggest providers of social care and charitable activities in Britain - and ask them what they contribute in these areas.

OP maybe you should stop as soon as I reference being Christian to your colleagues.

There are many aspects to my life that would surprise people I know- even people I an in regular close proximity with- and close family members.

You don't need to share all the details of your life with your workmates- especially if you know those aspects could cause conflict and end up leaving you feeling uncomfortable.

I'm a Reform Jew and even we don't take Leviticus literally 😂

Babdoc it's not me saying that the first five books were written by one person, but the church. I was pointing out that if you believe in what the the church teaches then you can't discard bits of it as being 'just some Israelite'.
If you believe the bible is fictional that's fine. That is my view too and the more Christians who realise it is the better.

As for "Only fundamentalists take the Old Testament as literal truth" I quoted the pope who thinks Adam and Eve were real.

"Christians (obviously) follow the teaching of Christ."

That's fine if Jesus was just a man with some good ideas and the old testament god was just a fictional character. That is a good thing in my eyes, but less good to people who still think god is real.

if god were real he'd still be here and still have the same opinions and practices that you'd have to approve of. Homophobia isn't the worst of those by a long way.

speakout I don't think OP should have to hide being Christian though. There's not anything wrong with saying "I went to church" if asked how your weekend went. I would never take that as a reason to criticise or as permission to question them.

The fine line I suppose is crossed when someone says "did you see that awful thing on the news" and the Christian "well Jesus wouldn't like that" or something similar. That is inviting debate.

There's not anything wrong with saying "I went to church" if asked how your weekend went.
Why mention it if it is going to cause antagonism.

I have very private parts of my life that I prefer to keep that way from some people I know- including close family members.

Sometimes it's simpler to take that path if you know it will cause antagonism.

If I was a keen fisherman and worked with vegans I wouldn't mention the fact I had been fishing if I knew they would pick up on that fact and take issue with it.

OP no one needs to know the details of your spiritual life.

@LastTrainEast - the Bible tells stories in a really cultural and time specific way. Leviticus is famous for its verses about not eating shellfish, not wearing a mix of fabrics, not attending worship if you have given birth in the last 6 weeks or whatever. It talks about having slaves and making sacrifices. It is very much part of the culture of things that were / weren't normal society at the time. Nobody is suggesting picking and choosing particular verses, but Christians are part of the whole of humankind, that has different ideas about "what is okay / right / acceptable / unacceptable" in the 21st Century than society did over 2000 years ago. You can read a hundred threads on here ever week pointing out that "things are different now from when our parents were our age", let alone from 2000+ years ago.

Well put @Theknacktoflying

If you believe the bible is fictional that's fine. That is my view too and the more Christians who realise it is the better.

Fundamentalists aside, IME, most Christians realise that the Bible is a massive collection of books, written by many different authors, many of whom weren't alive until hundreds or years after the events they were writing about, and who recorded stories that had been passed down through generations. Each time a story is retold there is the possibility that a detail changes just a little bit. Once written, they have then been translated over and over again - both from one language to another and over and over again as language evolves and changes.
Bit weird that you think the bible is somehow a 'recording' of events, and a pathe newsreel might have captured them (and even then, someone decides what the cameraman filmed , from what angle, and how much context they put it in).

@Speakout - the OP wasn't giving details of her spiritual life. I could easily reply to "Did you watch X last night" with "No, I was at Church then". In the same way that I might say "No, I couldn't come to X as I go to {insert football or choir or park run or anything else a person might do regularly at the weekend}. It isn't 'discussing my spiritual life', it is replying factually to a question. Or I can see a situation where I might say "Oh, I had a disaster at the weekend - I was on coffee at Church, when {tell humorous story or incident that I thought might make people smile at my expense }" - not discussing my spiritual life at all, but giving context for the funny thing that happened.

it is replying factually to a question.

You don't always have to " replyi factually to a question" if you feel sharing that information may lead to an uncomfortable situation.
Which the OP knows is likley to happen.
We don't have to share every detail mof our lives with our workmates.

I may have had a busy weekend meeting my Coven members to celebrate a Sabbat/spent an evening at my Alcoholics Anonymous meeting/attended a picnic with my local swingers group.....

If my workmate asked I may simply say I "met some friends", as I really wouldn't want any comments on my activites.

BackforGood "most Christians realise that the Bible is a massive collection of books, written by many different authors, many of whom weren't alive until hundreds or years after the events they were writing about, "

That by happy chance is my position too. There is no evidence that any part of that is real and no way to know who wrote it. and much of it is primitive tribal laws which you should not take seriously now,

Unfortunately even in the 21st century there are still people who think it was told to Moses by a 'god' and that he told Moses how he created the world and made Adam & Eve.

They think that the Ten Commandments were written by this god and passed down and that he wouldn't have let Moses make rules about killing his people unless he approved.

You can see how it is from their point of view. Without believing in those first 5 books they have no reason to suppose a god created the world at all and there goes sin, hell and heaven along with it.

If they do believe it then they are required to think god hated gay people and unbelievers and went around slaughtering men, women and children whenever he had a tantrum. (See Great Flood, The Slaughter of the Firstborn of Egypt and ... well most of the OT)

If we just accept them as a wandering tribe then we can't blame them for their primitive rules, but if god were real then wouldn't have been primitive back then and becoming more enlightened now would he.

Most Christians seem to think of Jesus saying 'be nice to each other' and that's good. He doesn't have to be god for that to work. You can think of Jesus as being a guy who looked around at a harsh religion/culture and said "we can be better than this"

But people want the reward so they cling on to the god thing and in doing so they support the belief that the bible is from god and that the rules matter.
Then because they support the bible the awful lessons the Old Testament teaches and the atrocities it praises go forward to the next generation.