Advice from other Christians: conversations about homosexuality

[bathsh3ba]

I work in a very 'woke' environment and it feels like as soon as I reference being Christian, I am jumped on with criticisms of Christianity being homophobic. I never proselytise or evangelise at work, I guess some of my views come across as different but I only give them if directly asked. By references to being Christian I mean e.g mentioning I had been to church or Bible Group when asked about my evening/weekend.

Does anyone else get this and what do you say? I usually say Christians have very different views on it but I believe God has bigger things to worry about and Jesus told us to love everyone, which is what I try to do. But they keep on about what I think and the honest answer is I don't know, there are so many viewpoints that I tend to just leave it to God and try to be nice to everyone!

MY sister and mother are both christian- different types- and both their churches have gay " conversion" clinics, set up to cure homosexuals.

I'm not sure they are that different. That's a pretty long way from most mainstream churches.

Ascribing to a religion can't be equated to being Welsh. Religion is a mode of thought, belief and conduct. Being Welsh is not.

Yes and no. For many people religion is a cultural background as being Welsh is for many. I think the analogy about not generalising about groups holds fine.

So we can ignore the 10 commandments? Which bits can be thrown out? And who decides?

The church decided almost 2 millenia ago to chuck out the purity laws. If you are going to be properly homophobic then you need to also burn two pidgeons on your period and murder anyone who eats shelfish (or is it shelfish with something else, I forget) for consistency.

That leaves two lines in Paul's letters versus lots of Gospel stuff about loving people and treating them kindly. Homophobia is a sin, or nothing is.

Also Adam & Eve without which you don't have original sin. Were they ancient Israelite nonsense?

It's a metaphor. I think if you insist that Christians (ignoring a very, very small proportion- a historically recent offshoot) take the bible literally then there is little point trying to engage with actual Christians about what they really believe.

53% of christians worldwide are catholic. The Catholic Church prohibits sexual activity between members of the same sex.

It is not a stretch of the imagination to work out that christianity is pretty homophobic.

Interestingly, more of my atheist friends are homophobic than my Christian friends.
As a Christian, I, and the vast majority of my Christian friends, follow Christ's teaching. As a pp said, he made no reference to homosexuality, but taught to love everyone. Indeed, to love especially those who are outcast.
On the other hand, I hear many homophobic comments from friends with no faith.

Homophobia is a sin, or nothing is.

So the c of e bishops who issued the recent guidance were commiting a sin?

I’m an “outcast” Christian as I don’t have a particular denomination or sect that I belong to or agree with. I don’t even read the bible much at all, maybe once a year? I suck. I don’t conform to a specific group because they’re all fractured and disagreeable on many things which isn’t what Christ intended for us (in my humble opinion). Love, peace and unity is the focus of my faith as Jesus was personification of these things, for some of us it is as simple as that. I sincerely hth.

I agree with @Borris. Jesus offended the religious people of His day. He hung out with people that the church rejected. From that it makes sense to me that He would be hanging out in the gay bars , spending time with drug dealers and addicts (not equating those groups, just the fact that they are people the established "church" has issues with) and we are called to live as He would.

I would probably answer along the lines that we all start from the same point - "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" but that "God has mercy on us all alike". God meets us where we are.

I have very dear friends who are homosexual and I pray for them regularly because I want them to know God and have a relationship with Him more than anything else - whatever is going on in their lives.

Interestingly, more of my atheist friends are homophobic than my Christian friends.

I couldn't be friends with a homophobe.

It didn't take long for this to descend into a 'but Christians are homophobic', did it?

Leviticus also says anyone who commits adultery should be stoned to death but Jesus stepped in and stopped a crowd from stoning a woman caught in adultery to death. Leviticus is the 'old covenant' designed to maintain the Jewish people. When God opened His love to all, He said there was a new covenant. Christians should not follow Leviticus. It is part of our Holy Book to remind us where we came from but it does not direct our daily life.

If you take out Leviticus, you have Sodom and Gomorrah which is actually about gang rape and you have a few things Paul said that he admitted were his opinions/advice and not directly God's instruction.

So yes some Christians misuse the Bible. No, the Christian faith is not itself homophobic. It does condemn sex out of marriage which affects a lot more people!

@speakout It is legitimate to hold a religious adherant to question over doctrine- even the "trickier" topics. - there is a time and a place for that. in the work place when both parties are supposed to be getting on with their jobs is not it.

if someone is preaching their views and trying to convince others - whether christianity, islam, voting for the labour party or attitudes to gender identity - then by all means such views should be robustly challenged and defended - within the bounds of civilised discourse, without hatred on either side and an acknowledgement that both sides have a right to their opinion. if all op has done is mention that she was on the church coffee rota on Sunday she has not thereby asserted anything about what she believes and shouldn't be expected to defend viewpoints that she may not even share.

What adachi said. I think just give them a firm look and say 'I'm turning the other cheek right now. What are you up to for lunch?' Its wrong to bully and harass.

I have heard it said that Paul was referring to promiscuity, and to homosexual prostitution (temple rent boys) rather than two people of the same sex in a loving relationship

Yes, Paul's advice is usually context specific and I have heard it argued he was referring to power imbalanced relationships between older men and boys.

For me, I think, though, in a way it doesn't matter if God approves of homosexuality or not. He disapproves of lots of things we do but it doesn't mean He doesn't love us and we are commanded to love everyone and not to judge.

If I were gay, I would pray and I am sure God would reveal the answer to me. But I'm not so I don't need to know, I just need to love people regardless of who they are or what they do.

Yes@speakout, you are right. "Friends" was the wrong word to use. These people are in circles of people I know.
The people with whom I choose to spend my time (true friends) are definitely not homophobic.

So yes some Christians misuse the Bible. No, the Christian faith is not itself homophobic. It does condemn sex out of marriage which affects a lot more people!

But according to many mainstream churches, gay people can't get married.

I think the difficulty is that you really do have to transform the obvious understandings of Christianity to remove the homophobic elements.

I know plenty of Christians who aren't bigoted about LGB people. But they usually either ignore the homophobic bits of the faith, or they are part of a very revisionist group that have adopted novel interpretations of Christian sexual morality.

Now, I don't blame either reaction - religious belief is a strong driver, and it can be hard to reconcile a teaching about love with an injunction that homosexuality is inherently wrong.

But for me there was no getting away from the teaching of homosexuality as sin,or changing Christianity. Neither option felt acceptable to me, so walked away from.the whole thing. But others do differently.

Humani generis The papal encyclical 12 August 1950

It's a bit long , but you can skip to 37 which finishes with this.

37.......... with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Apparently Adam & Eve are officially real.

Also according to both Jewish and Christian authorities, the first 5 books (that's Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy for those who haven't read it) were all written by one person.

So disavowing Leviticus would remove any reason to believe the rest.

Given that it IS fair to say that the bible - the whole basis of Christianity - is homophobic.

It does NOT mean that all Christians are homophobic - far from it.

Lots of 'Christians' know little of what god asks them to do in the bible anyway and get by just fine with Christmas carols and nativity plays. Instead they take their morals from society at large and are no better or worse than people in general.

Your co-workers would have a hard time with my openly, actively gay Christian friends, who just take the line that Jesus himself didn't condemn or even allude to homosexuality and the rest of the bible is full of contradictions, so any Christian who is homophobic is so due to their own bigotry, selecting the scriptures that support their view. There will be other scriptures they wholly ignore (Leviticus has lots of outmoded rules.)

When people tell me being a Christian is about the New Testament/Jesus only it's as if they don't think the OT god was real. It's supposed to be the same god isn't it? Unless he died.

the bible - the whole basis of Christianity - is homophobic. Is it, though? It may be that Judaism is, as that s based around the Old Testament, but Christians should be more strongly steered by Jesus's own teachings. I know there are huge tracts of horrible homophobia in the bible. But some Christians build their faith around what Jesus actually said, did and taught, in which case, homosexuals can love who they want and shag as they please, without upsetting Him.

Yeah, but milliefiori, the gay Christians are being just as selective, aren't they? Do they own that?

Don't get me wrong, I certainly think not being bigoted is the correct moral position, but most pro gay, progressive Christians I know do this weird spin of 'this is the true way of Christianity that we have uncovered' as though the Christians who think they have to try and hold on to the anti gay stuff are adding on things that aren't there.

If pro gay Christians were honest that both groups are picking and choosing, and that pro gay is quite an innovation after millennia of traditionalism, I'd probably have more respect for it. As it is, it just looks like another pompous version of 'my religion is better than yours' but with a progressive spin.

milliefiori that's right. The vast majority of Christians will be decent loving people. but the first 5 books are either from god via Moses or a fictional tale written by Moses.

If you believe god is real and told Moses to write about the creation and all the other things in those 5 books do you really think he'd have let Moses add "and btw stone gay people" unless he agreed with it?

I can't help thinking that Christians who don't believe in the nasty stuff in the OT (there's a lot) and who see Jesus as an inspiring teacher would be better off going with that. They could forget about claims of god and just discard the OT entirely.

But while people say "that is god talking" they have to take the bad with the good.

FWIW, I really have no problem with people making religion whatever feels positive and of benefit to them personally and society at large. I just think being less than transparent or honest about the original beliefs of your chosen religion is probably not quite as ethical as one would expect from a positive revision of a religion.

when I go to church we are not given a ‘shit list’ .... it is usually an undertaking of how the service is going to be and at the back a list of all the support groups and help a d community outreaches the church does.
We usually offer prayers and reflect on current issues and concerns. The minister offers us a reflection on how we can be better humans and more caring people. We have communion and reflect on our commitment to being a better person.
We don’t stone people, pass judgement and often the only hard ship is having to drink the tea after the service.
In short, being a Christian is more trying to be a better person than worrying about others so-called sins and fate of their eternal life ..

Christianity is about thinking the best of people, helping where you are able and just not being a Dick ...

Does anyone else get this and what do you say?

I haven't encountered this personally, although as an atheist Catholic (I see no contradiction in this ) if people make a smart arsed comment about Catholicism, I beatifically remind them that it is the One True Faith, and that I am therefore going to heaven and they are not, so joke's on them really, but in such a way that I'm clearly (probably...) joking. Maybe not massively helpful in your position!

On here though, I report every comment that bashes Catholics that I see (and goodness me but there are a LOT sometimes) and say "None of these comments, or any of this interrogation, would be acceptable if the conversation was about Judaism or Islam."

So here I would say:

Hey colleague, you bring this up a LOT. Like a LOT a lot. Which is weird because it's obviously a THING for you, but also would you be asking me to explain homophobia in Islam if I was Muslim? Because I kind of feel that you would think that was... harassment?

Or:

You're actually making me quite uncomfortable and targeted with how you bring up my faith and expect me to defend it so often. It's not my job to be a spokesperson for Christianity through the ages. I thought work was a safe space.

If they're woke they'll probably fall over if you use phrases like "safe space" or better yet, triggering, if you can work that in at all.

crosspelican has good advice. I like crosspelican.