Question for Christians

[TildaKauskumholm]

Not being goady or disrespectful at all, just puzzled. I am just recovering from a health issue and have been using online forums for support and advice. Many on there are American, and it is common for them to mention praying re test results/surgery etc. They also say things such as God has helped their recovery/given them a good outcome, etc. I am always puzzled by this, and would like to know, if you are a Christian, why do you think God will help you through the problem, or has caused you to recover, when surely God could have caused you NOT to have the health issue in the first place? Please don't be offended, I am not anti-Christian or any other religion, but I don't get the thinking here.

Who's spiritually dead inside? What does that even mean?

It means she's all out of reasoned arguments

I think the Book of Job sums it up. He led a good life but had horrific suffering inflicted on him. Finally he just gave up and all he wanted to know was why. The reply came ,"Where were you when I created the heavens ..." In other words no mortal can hope to understand God so even asking the question is pointless. Later versions had him having his health etc restored. A bit of a cop out - evil is part of God not separate. Faith is not tied to logic so some questions are as meaningless as asking if a brick is angered by a banana.

I've name changed but I'm not out of arguments. An understanding of Christianity is like the path to enlightenment. You won't fully understand unless you study and apply the learning to your life. There are some scientific journals published out there if you're interested... They've discovered that a particular part of the brain lights up when you pray... Obviously this shows a person can be spiritually alive as it were... When you are a Christian and accept the belief as it were the Holy Spirit lives in you as it were and you are therefore spiritually alive. Just go and read... Like any good lawyer if you're arguing a case research both arguments otherwise you're just biased.

They've discovered that a particular part of the brain lights up when you pray. Obviously this shows a person can be spiritually alive

Different parts of the brain "light up" when you do anything. Pray, pick your nose, eat a jelly baby, think about stabbing Nigel Farage in the eye with a steak knife.

It doesn't show anything other than you have a working brain.

I bet the same bit lights up when a Satanist prays.

I’ve heard it all now.

Different parts of your brain being triggered by different activity has nothing to do with the holy spiritual in your brain. It has nothing to do with the specific belief that person has or the specific religion they follow. It’s the act of focussing, relaxing, directing your thoughts and contemplating the issue. You engage that part of your brain to do those tasks, which gives the same brain scan whether you’re praying or meditation. You’re just using a specific part of your brain to do that particular action.

Here’s a good quote about it

"Prayer and meditation are highly effective in lowering our reactivity to traumatic and negative events," says Dr. Paul Hokemeyer, a marriage, family and addictions therapist. "They are powerful because they focus our thoughts on something outside ourselves. During times of stress, our limbic system, more commonly known as our central nervous system, becomes hyper-activated, which does two things: it thrusts us in to survival mode where we freeze, fight or flee the situation, [such that] we move away from the present state of being into a future state. This also shuts down our executive functioning [and] prevents us from thinking clearly. This is why when we’re stressed out we can make poor decisions and act in self-destructive ways. When we sit down and engage in prayer or meditation, we are able to shift away from this frightened and stressed survival mode into "an intentional state," says Dr. Hokemeyer, and ultimately “reengage our prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that rules our executive functioning and enables us to make intelligent mindful decisions."

Absolutely. If you suck a contemplative Christian, Buddhist Monk or mindfulness practitioner in an MRI scanner the same part of the brain would light up. The Buddhist and the Christian are using the technique as a tool in their prayer life and are likely to have experienced practitioners to help them if it brings up difficult issues or they are finding the practice hard. It is more hit and miss in a secular setting. Same tool different setting.

Stuck. Honestly don't know what is wrong with my proof reading this morning!!!

I preferred suck, although an MRI scanner isn't the ideal place.

Thanks all for your responses. I am however still no more able to understand the 'logic' of what I wrote in my OP - so in my case, now having a not very good recovery from surgery, which was to correct a much earlier failed surgery, for a problem which was not of my own making (not obese/non smoker etc, not into dangerous sports).... why on earth would I think or believe that God would be helping me NOW? I do see that prayer can help to calm the mind and create positive feelings, but that's all.

so in my case, now having a not very good recovery from surgery, which was to correct a much earlier failed surgery, for a problem which was not of my own making (not obese/non smoker etc, not into dangerous sports).... why on earth would I think or believe that God would be helping me NOW?

The thing about 'faith healing', though, op, is that what is required is faith. Not acting faultlessly or anything else but faith. If you don't believe you can't operate in the faith required for 'faith healing'.

I am however still no more able to understand the 'logic'

Faith, by very definition, is not logical as it involves a decision to hope in circumstances when much of the pertinent information and facts are not available or established, it involves the unseen and unknown. If faith were logical it would not be faith.

Logic was the wrong word, I guess I mean thought process.

It's a very similar thought process to when you would have to have faith in other areas of life, wherever you have to make a decision when you don't have access to a complete set of facts and outcomes cannot be one hundred percent certain, that is wherever there is risk involved. So IMO exercising faith is allows us to be comfortable with and accept risk and essentially still function when risk is present.

And IMO it is impossible to completely negate every single risk. Accepting risk and being able to function and move forward in a timely fashion, whilst risks are present, is an important life lesson to learn.

And exploring religious beliefs and practices, concerning the way faith operates, can help us deal with ever present risk.

They've discovered that a particular part of the brain lights up when you pray. Obviously this shows a person can be spiritually alive

My brain lights up when I see a packet of fruitella.

How could a god watch things like the Fritzl situation going on and not intervene?

Even if he is real, he's so cruel that I wouldn't want to worship him.

Why do some people get "miracles" and not others?

One of the kindest most wonderful people I've ever known died of cancer after a long and painful period of illness.

Did she not pray hard enough?

One person quoting bible verses is a response that attempts to base their side of the debate on a book that non religions people like myself do not live by or think is the word of a god.

Religion is a leap of faith, so instead of quoting bible verses surely you can answer questions and challenges by just saying yes I understand it doesn't make sense to you but I still believe it (like some have on this thread but not many).

so instead of quoting bible verses surely you can answer questions and challenges by just saying yes I understand it doesn't make sense to you but I still believe it (like some have on this thread but not many).

Well, yes, and that is the option I took. However if you want to truly understand why a Christian believes as they do the Bible does come into it. The quotes elaborate on the belief, they clarify and define exactly what it is. So as an aid to understanding someone else's though processes, which essentially is what this thread seeks to do, I would have thought the quotes would be pretty useful.

attempts to base their side of the debate on a book that non religions people like myself do not live by or think is the word of a god.

For myself, it is not a debate. I have nothing to prove. Added to this we are talking about a subject that cannot be proved or disproved in the scientific sense.

However, if you are seeking understanding of they way another person believes and thinks you need to let them express themselves in their own terms. Otherwise the conversation ceases because you have merely shut them down. Not because any point has been won, in fact something has been lost, because the very language someone uses to describe their understanding and experience has been rejected at the outset and therefore any dialogue dies.

Apologies I think my posts came across as too confrontational.

What I mean is it's good enough to say "yes I understand it's hard to understand if you don't believe but I have faith that it's true."

I would understand the reasoning of "I believe because I have faith stronger than doubt" more than "the bible is written proof that it's true."

Some of my friends who are Christian do cherry pick from the bible what they can / can't do / believe. Last week I was chatting to one of them (who is lovely) and they said it's wrong to take things in the bible out of context because it's the word of god, but with issues that directly affect them they said that it's important to have context of the time and adapt it for modern day.

For example the bible says:

“Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear” (1 Peter 3:3–4)

So I don't understand how Christians can braid their hair or wear gold jewelry, surely if the above is the word of god then Christians would never plait their hair or wear gold. But they do?

I'm not trying to be confrontational - I'm sorry if the tone comes across as that. I grew up in a catholic family and went to catholic primary school, often feeling like my questions (which were and are genuine ones, because I love learning) were dismissed as disruptive.

I guess I'm saying the bible can be proof of why you believe a certain thing, but not proof that the certain thing is true. I hope that makes sense I don't think I'm explaining myself very well sorry.

So I don't understand how Christians can braid their hair or wear gold jewelry, surely if the above is the word of god then Christians would never plait their hair or wear gold. But they do?

Because the nature of language itself is not literal. You only need to look at etymology to see that. It is the idea that is being expressed which is the important thing. And the idea not to prioritise (or become obsessed with) appearances over the nature of what is thought and heartfelt is sound, I think. If gold and braids were unfashionable it could just as easily be diamonds and perms

do cherry pick from the bible what they can / can't do / believe.

We all do 'cherry pick'. IMO this is not a bad thing. Just as it makes sense to pick the fruit that is ripe off a tree and leave the unripe stuff on the branch to ripen, the stuff in the Bible which we can relate to the context our own lives makes the most sense to us. This will be different for different people as we all have had different experiences.

I guess I'm saying the bible can be proof of why you believe a certain thing, but not proof that the certain thing is true

Again, the aim (at least for me) is to explain and share why/how we believe and not prove our beliefs are true. Christianity is a faith and requires faith. If we could scientifically and conclusively prove the truth in it no faith would be required.

often feeling like my questions (which were and are genuine ones, because I love learning) were dismissed as disruptive.

I think you have to ask yourself what is the aim of asking the questions. Are you actually using them to build a case in order to mentally dismiss everything in the Bible/God as fiction? Or are you genuinely and open mindedly asking them in order to learn. People can become defensive about the former.

I would understand the reasoning of "I believe because I have faith stronger than doubt" more than "the bible is written proof that it's true."

But that is personal to you. Conversations between Christian believers will often include Bible quotes in order to establish whether a belief in question is a result of actual Christian faith or merely a person's own wishful (or alternatively fearful) thinking. So quoting the Bible can become a 'go to' in order establish what is Christian belief and what is not and a result of personal thoughts.

@silverystream

Thank you for coming back to me I really appreciate it

Or are you genuinely and open mindedly asking them in order to learn. People can become defensive about the former

I'm genuinely open minded, I find it fascinating and like learning from other people and thinking about psychology and philosophy.

My mum goes to church every week and I love that it makes her feel connected to her family who have passed on. She's incredibly kind and doesn't judge people on their sexuality / marriage status etc which I probably have a chip on my shoulder about in general because I'm bi and my parents got divorced.

I think on this point we agree

Again, the aim (at least for me) is to explain and share why/how we believe and not prove our beliefs are true. Christianity is a faith and requires faith. If we could scientifically and conclusively prove the truth in it no faith would be required.

Its what I was trying to say with the below

I guess I'm saying the bible can be proof of why you believe a certain thing, but not proof that the certain thing is true

Again appreciate you coming back to me. I'll never be able to believe myself due to some really terrible things that have happened to me and not being able to fathom a god existing who would let them happen.

But I know other people genuinely believe and I respect their feelings on the subject, as I respect my lovely mum and her reasons for going to church.

Thanks for explaining your personal feelings about religion I appreciate it and am always interested in learning about points of view that differ to mine