Christianity.... being saved

[SilverViking]

Hi there. DP and myself were born and bred Catholics, regular mass goers etc. DP had always had much more curiosity about the bible and reading it, as well as discussing religion with others.
In January DP started a "bible study" class with a work collegue/friend in a Presbyterian church about 45 mins drive from home. By mid March, DP became saved and described a beautiful feeling of Gods presence. For full disclosure i thought there was a big blip in our relationship prior and during that time, with very little communication/talk at that time, going to regular meetings and constant messaging friends from morning to night. This was also taking its toll as MIL lives with us and requires care.
Anyhow, it's all very new for DP and myself... but has settled a bit from initially wanting me to go to the Presbyterian church services and not wanting to be part of the local RC church, as well as weekly service, weekly bible study meeting, studying the bible at night and weekends.

We have talked a lot since and i understand a lot of what DP is saying ... and why DPs beliefs better fit the Presbyterian church views and the things most difficult in RC church. I've also listened to podcast ceremons from the church and went along to a religious seminar. It is of course a common view and similar language (no surprise with both being Christian churches) but used in a different way.

I have some queries to help me understand the language of being saved, but will start with....
Is being saved a common term with the same meaning across all Protestant churches? (Ie you are saved when you accept God had died to forgive your sins past and future. So by following Gods word on earth you know you will have eternal life in Heaven)

Are all attenders at Presbytetian churches saved? This is a little confusing as they use the word "Christian" to mean someone who is saved .... not just sometime who follows a Christian faith.

Are there any practicing Catholics that would consider themselves saved (as defined above)? ... there is a bit of contradiction with catholic theology on getting to heaven vs being saved and knowing you are going to heaven (although the paths following Jesus are remarkably similar ... no surprise there again, as they are both based on the bible!!)

I can only answer from the Catholic pov, I don't know Presbyterianism from the inside.

Catholics do not use the language of being 'saved' because there are conflicting Scripture verses on this. As a summary, we believe that salvation is not an on-off switch, it is a growth in our relationship with Christ and the Blessed Trinity throughout our lives and into death. We cannot know for sure whether we are 'saved' in the strict sense of going to heaven until we die. Not every Christian will necessarily be saved and plenty of non-Christians can be saved, but we are not able to judge who is and isn't saved, only God knows. We can be confident in God's love and mercy and know that only people who obstinately refuse his offer of friendship will be damned, and this gives us hope for salvation. We can know our state of grace in this moment, i.e. whether or not we are walking with God, but we cannot predict the future and know for sure what choices we may make to turn against him.

That's the short version. The very short version would be that we believe both that we are saved when we accept Jesus into our lives, ''confess with our lips and believe in our hearts' as St Paul says, AND that we are 'working out our salvation with fear and trembling' as St Paul also says! It's both.

Thanks... that was along the lines of my catholic thinking.
It is strange that there is so much in common... yet do different.

Traditionally, Presbyterianism teaches that there's nothing humans can do towards their own salvation, it's entirely God's choice (election/ predestination) who is saved and who isn't. Presbyterians have split many times over the years, so I wouldn't know what your particular church teaches on this and how exactly they word it, but it's a core Presbyterian belief.

Catholics, otoh, believe that God freely offers salvation to all humans and it is in the exercise of free will that people choose for or against God.

This basic difference then affects what we both believe about things like faith and works.

Both beliefs are scriptural, based on different Bible passages.

I'm a Presbyterian. In my church (CoS) we would never talk about being saved. It's just not the kind of language we would use. Traditionally, we believe that God calls his own, but more and more that means that He calls everyone, not just the select few. It is up to us whether we heed His call.

There is nothing that we can do to "earn" salvation, though, except "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9. No amount of good deeds will save you if you do not truly believe that.

The idea of double predestination doesn't hold any sway in the church of Scotland any more, thank goodness. We are a much more Merciful bunch than we used to be.

Thanks both ... that is a insight.

Generally all Protestant churches believe that we rely on Jesus for our salvation in that his death on the cross paid the price for sin and we are now freely in a relationship with God. The difference with the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church puts lots of rules in that you have to achieve before you can get to heaven. For example - the Cathecism says you can go to hell for missing mass on a Sunday.

@Teenageromance, That's not a very accurate characterisation of Catholic theology.

Catholics also believe that salvation comes from Christ alone, by the grace of the Trinity. The reason someone might go to hell (and the Catechism does not say you can go to hell for missing Mass on a Sunday) is because they persist in grave sin, which is an obstinate refusal to accept God's grace and forgiveness. It is possible, technically speaking, that missing Mass would demonstrate that grave sin, but only if the person deliberately chose to miss Mass as a refusal of God's love. As Jesus said, 'if anyone loves me he will keep my commandments', so Catholics believe that a deliberate refusal to follow the commandments in a serious way can cut us off from the grace of God and so from salvation. Not that 'keeping the rules' can earn us salvation, which is an unmerited free gift from God, but keeping the commandments can indicate someone's desire (or not) to accept the grace which God freely offers to all. And it allows us to objectively assess our relationship with God and not deceive ourselves that we have accepted him into our lives whilst we continue to refuse to convert our way of living.

In Catholic thought, mortal sin (which can lead to hell if the person does not repent) requires not only that the sin in itself be a serious thing, but also that the person freely chooses it and knows it to be a serious sin. Missing Mass on a Sunday would very rarely (never?) fulfil those criteria. Mortal sin is a free choice to cut oneself off from the life of grace and God, it can't happen by accident and certainly not because God is somehow trying to trip people up with unnecessary rules.

I have to say it doesn't sound very Presbyterian to my Scottish Presbyterian ears.

Nor to mine, tea. It sounds more Evangelical.

I've been reading a fair bit about this recently and the thing I have come to is to realise that the idea of "being saved" is very narrow, and plays upon the very human desire to have assurance about what happens after we die. Most of the world religions attempt to answer this need with assurances of heaven/paradise/nirvana etc if certain criteria are fulfilled.

Many Christians claim that Christianity is distinct from other religions because in order to "be saved" (ie in order to escape hell / get into heaven after we die) Jesus did all the work, so we don't have to do anything but trust in him. However, it's much more exciting that that. Jesus's core message was "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" - ie we can know life with God right here and now; heaven is now if we live in God's love. This takes us away from being saved from hell, towards being saved for a life of friendship with God, which starts now and will last forever. (If interested in more I highly recommend The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard - it's quite a wordy read, but full of insight into the life and teachings of Jesus.)

I thought the concept was common across denominations? My grandmother was Roman Catholic and her favourite hymn was the Old Ragged Cross - which pretty much encapsulates what you're saying your dh now believes? Tbh i don't believe a great deal of it, but whatever gives people comfort is fine by me.

my father was Presbyterian and I was christened as such but I never heard him speak of being saved.
I attend an evangelical church and a bible study weekly and this is exactly the language used - people will say testimonies such as ' I was saved when I was 20..' And we believe that if you accept Jesus as saviour after he died for us on the cross to atone for our sins, salvation is yours. Good works and Christian living must follow, but the salvation can only be granted by Jesis and God by a personal relationship with Him. Then the Holy Spirit can dwell within us to comfort and guide us while here on earth.

It sounds very like N Ireland Presbyterianism. I believe it is much more 'extreme' (that's not really the proper word but I can't think how to describe it) as it parted company with Scottish Presbyterian fairly recently due to the Scottish being too liberal.

It sounds more Evangelical.

Is there such a thing as Evangelical Presbyterianism?
Maybe some modern church (from America perhaps) on a mission?

TBH I think the concept of being saved is just plain crazy and irrelevant to the really important things in life: being kind to others.

Isobeller... yes it is in Northern Ireland.

Thanks you all for your replies.

That explains a lot, Silver. The NI Presbyterian church is much fiercer than the church of Scotland and much more fundamentalist. They are also fairly misogynistic. Your dh may well start expecting you to be a submissive wee wifie. My ex FIL definitely did with ex MIL.

I have attended both northern Irish and Scottish Presbyterian churches. No way was my mum submissive, though both parents were committed Presbyterians! Whether someone was saved or not was a big part of NIrish life in my memory. Obviously for a Catholic to become a Presbyterian in NI carries other issues with it as well, in terms of tradition and community. Don’t let you dh impose anything on you you’re not comfortable with.

Whether someone was saved or not was a big part of NIrish life in my memory.

I'd agree. I've been asked that more times than I can count. By family, friends, church members, colleagues and even occasionally a stranger who has struck up a conversation in a supermarket queue or at a bus stop. And if you say no, the next question is 'why not?' and if you say yes the next question was 'on what date?'.

I remember when we were organising my father's funeral the minister wanted to know what date he was saved on.

The desire to be "saved" is essentially a selfish one - the message of Christianity is not about personal "salvation" but about kindness to others.

@Mishappen ... not quite selfish, as @stayclosetoyourself says the saved believe that if you accept Jesus died to atone all your sins, salvation is yours. Good works and Christian living must follow, as the Holy Spirit will dwell within you to guide you earth to salvation. So it is the same praying, asking for forgivenes for sin and good works as a non saved Christian believe in.. only they believe God will judge you when you die.... but saved people believe that a saved person cannot commit a grave sin otherwise they were not really saved to start with!

@Tunnockswafer ... we have lots of friend of all beliefs and none, so the different belief / culture in the Northern Ireland context isn't insurmountable . It is something I would probably pick up and be more conscious of than DP ... but more than the different culture and background is the fact the church and community is an hours drive away. I'm very aware/wary of there will be more and more invites to become involved in faith and churchy things there.

@Lessstressedhemum ... i dont think I'll suffer from the submissive role LOL. Although it will take a bit of time to find an equilibrium of DPs expectation of the changes in our life and my expectations. Even simple things like not feeling guilty about suggesting doing something that might mean they will miss Sunday evening bible study.

As i said, this has been such a whirlwind. I would never have thought in a million years DP would ever be "saved" until it happened 2 months ago. It happened so quickly, and i guess what has really struck me is that you think you know a person you have spent 2/3 of your life with ... and yet without any clue or discussion something so core to life like this is happening in their life.

I really do not want to let this become blurred as a relationship issue ... as I obviously believe in God and that He is present in our lives.

The final thing for now is that i am aware that our children (at least the youngest one) is at an awkward age in terms of faith. I want to ensure he doesn't get confused with a mixed message what we believed before March, is different from what DP believes and wants to worship now. In a couple of years all DC will be old enough to make up their own mind a believe or not. It is also DC that I am very conscious of the moving to a different congregation in a different community/culture could be very uncomfortable or embarrassing.

Thanks for all the input. It has been useful getting spurious views from the internet LOL. But it is helping me progress my thinking and acceptance of these changes.

..... now, I'm off to reflect on what i believe and why i cannot get my head around the concept of being saved and born again!

Woops ... thst read a bit long !

Please don’t let your dh push you into thinking he is “doing” Christianity better than you.

It sounds like you have your own beliefs sorted and presumably your dc already following Catholicism? Let dh do his own thing. Be supportive but you dont have to participate and explain that the Christian thing to do would be to continue to join in your family church going. His mission (one of) in life is to be husband and father and shouldn't get too caught up in a religion if it takes him away from that.

Fwiw you can still experience intense conversion and active faith in / relationship with God within the Catholic church (as well as I should imagine any other faith).

He might want to try bible study and prayer still from a Catholic stand point. He might have mistaken his new religious beliefs for the only way to experience connection with God. Thats just not true. Perhaps more spiritual exploration would help him. Trying contemplative prayer or daily examen or lectio divina (possibly with a spiritual director) would be interesting to see if that helps him.

Its a shame for two people with similar religious views to be divided by rather than united in their beliefs.

Thanks.

I've had a reflective few days and did a bit of reading and I am a lot more comfortable in my own beliefs in my own head and why I believe what I do ... the same as this all happened 2 months ago. I have a few notes made that reinforce and will discuss with dp.
I also want to make sure that my thoughts on faith are not being confused by how i feel about the trust in the relationship. The intensity of these new saved friends .... dp suggested last week that i should get some help and speak to the pastor to help me understand my thoughts/ beliefs. This huge change happening so quickly without any communication until afterwards. It has shocked me how i feel about trust at the moment.... and is probably clouding my thoughts on what is going on at the moment.... and stp getting annoyed with the time on bible study and with saved friends

We need to get to some sort of equilibrium that is sustainable so our relationship returns to normal and we can both live with long term .... but that might take some time.

I'll see how the conversations go over the next while. In the mean time, i need to start making myself busy so it doesn't take up as much headspace and i stop reading too much (or wrongly projecting ) into what is going on.