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Philosophy/religion

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Shuffling Feet and Purgatory

45 replies

MarsLady · 09/07/2007 21:00

Now can you help me out please?

Is there some mention of shuffling feet and purgatory (together) in the Catholic Bible?

It's for an essay I'm writing and I've tried googling and am going blind. Can't see the forest for the trees I think!

Thank you.

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 09:56

along the left a band of souls appeared
to me to be approaching us-but so
unhurriedly, their movements did not show.
"Lift up your eyes," I told my master; "here
are those who can advise us how to go,
if you can find no counsel in yourself."
At this, he looked at them and, less distressed,
replied: "Let us go there; their steps are slow;
and you, my gentle son, hold fast to hope."
The distance from that company to us-
I mean when we had gone a thousand paces-
was still as far as a fine hurler's toss,
when they all huddled toward the hard rock wall
and, once they'd crowded there, refused to budge,
even as men, when apprehensive, halt.
"O chosen souls, you who have ended well,"
Virgil began, "by virtue of that peace
which I believe awaits you all, please tell
us where the slope inclines and can be climbed;
for he who best discerns the worth of time
is most distressed whenever time is lost."
Even as sheep that move, first one, then two,
then three, out of the fold-the others also
stand, eyes and muzzles lowered, timidly;
and what the first sheep does, the others do,
and if it halts, they huddle close behind,
simple and quiet and not knowing why:
so, then, I saw those spirits in the front
of that flock favored by good fortune move-
their looks were modest; seemly, slow, their walk.
(Dante, Purgatory, canto 3, ll.58-87; trans. by Allan Mandelbaum. Text available at: dante.ilt.columbia.edu/new/comedy/index.html)

HTH. I have a concordance of the Divine Comedy here, so if you want to copy the passage you're trying to find a source for, I may be able to do a bit more detective work for you....

Ellbell · 13/07/2007 09:57

I am finding the phrase 'a fine hurler's toss' strangely amusing... Think it must be an American thing.

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 11:56

Hi ellbell

Now I can't find the text online to c&p so I'll have to type it out. It's in Life Of Galileo by Bertholt Brecht. Scene 12

Pope: This shuffling is getting on my nerves. I cannot help listening to it.

Inquisitor: It may speak to you more persuasively than I can, your Holiness. Are all these people to leave here with doubt in their hearts?

Pope: After all the man is the greatest physicist of our time, the light of Italy, and not just any old crank. He has friends...

(more speech that I can't be bothered to type out)

Inquisitor: But how? His book shows a stupid man......

Pope: What did you say? Well, which of them expresses our view?

Inquisitor: Not the clever one

Pope: Yes, that is an impertinence. All this stamping in the corridors is really unbearable. Is the whole world coming here?

Now... this is a short scene but the setting of the scene talks about shuffling feet, the Pope mentions these feet several times. It's not just the physical shuffling of feet that he can hear, I'm convinced that there is something in Catholic doctrine that Brecht is pointing out. Hence my question.

Just to let you know I'm truly appreciative. This is the last piece of my essay and I just want it done now. Sigh...........

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 12:16

Hmmmmm.... I'm really not sure. I'm sure you're right that the shuffling (and later stamping) feet are significant on a metaphorical level. The shuffling/stamping suggests impatience, though, and therefore I don't think the passage from Purgatorio that I quoted is relevant. This is making me think of canto 3 of Inferno.

Here Dante sees the souls of the ignavi (the souls who were neither good nor bad) who are confined to the 'vestibule' of Hell (in a sort of no-man's-land; Heaven won't have them, but nor will Hell). There is no explicit mention of feet here, but they do run constantly after a banner and there is a lot of emphasis on sound here. But the thing that makes me think of your passage is the mention of 'colui / che fece per viltade il gran rifiuto' (he who, through cowardice, made the great refusal). It's unclear who this is meant to refer to. Some people think Pilate (too scared not to have Christ put to death) and some think Pope Celestine V (who abdicated in favour of the evil Boniface VIII). This seems relevant to your passage, since - if I've understood it correctly - the Pope is hesitating as to whether to condemn Galileo (?)... so, if he does condemn him he'd be like Pilate condemning Christ... out of cowardice, not conviction.

Moreover (sorry... once I get started on Dante I'm off....) this is immediately followed by a description of the crowds of souls waiting to cross the river Acheron into Hell proper. Again, no shuffling feet as such, but a description of the souls gathering in hordes to cross the river. Dante asks why they seem so eager to cross into Hell, and Virgil explains that 'they are eager to cross the river / for the justice of God so spurs them on / that their very fear is turned to longing'.

This all seems quite relevant to me... The shuffling feet are like the souls eager to cross into Dante's Hell and the pope is like the one who made the great refusal out of cowardice - unable to make a decision for right or for wrong. So it's a bit as if the hordes of Hell are waiting outside the door waiting to welcome Galileo into their group, but the Pope knows that he too will be part of this group if he does condemn Galileo. However, this may be me reading WAY too much into it.

Ellbell · 13/07/2007 12:18

I'm also wondering if there is something foot-related (??) in the liturgy. Will try to check for you...

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 12:23

Blardy hell!!!!!!!!!!! I want you to come finish my essay. You have just given me so much info. I think I'm about to overrun my word limit.

Both passages seem relevent. The Pope is hesitant in condemning Galileo. This scene is as the Pope is getting all "robed up" and the more clothes he puts on the more constrained he is in both speech and movement. He was (at the beginning of the play) a fan - wrong word - of Galileo. His role in the play proves that even those with power are powerless!

I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 12:33

Can you get hold of a copy of the Inferno? Penguin have an older translation by Mark Musa which has quite good notes, and a more recent one, translated by Robin Kirkpatrick. If not, have a look at the Columbia site I linked to before for the text.

I have had a quick look for feet in the liturgy (as it were!) and I can't find anything except for washing of feet on Maundy Thursday which doesn't seem relevant.

I'm willing to bet that this is a reference to the 'gran rifiuto' passage though. It's pretty well-known because it comes right after the famous gate of Hell bit (Abandon hope all ye who enter here) and it is also right next to the bit that TS Eliot uses ('I had not thought that death had undone so many' - probably misquoted... sorry).

Ellbell · 13/07/2007 12:39

'His role in the play proves that even those with power are powerless!'

Yes, except that Dante would say that what he saw in Hell shows that no-one is really powerless to do what they believe to be right. (If they were powerless it would not be just to put them in Hell for having done wrong... They did have the power to refuse, but not the courage to do so.) This is why I think that Pilate/Celestine (but especially Pilate) work so well as models for your passage.

Ellbell · 13/07/2007 12:43

The talk of Pilate has also reminded me of another passage which might be relevant. When Dante meets the hypocrites (canto XXIII) we are told that they move with 'lenti passi' (slow steps). They are punished by being forced to wear gold cloaks lined with lead. But the reason this relates to Pilate is that here we see Caiaphas who, instead of sharing the punishment of the other hypocrites, is crucified on the ground and has to bear the weight of the other sinners walking over him. We are told that his punishment is shared by the other members of the Sanhedrin who condemned Christ. So here too the slow and heavy feet are linked with hypocrisy, betrayal, etc.

I should probably stop, shouldn't I?

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 12:55

Which also illustrates why Brecht has failed in his objective to alienate us from his "hero". We are not supposed to feel any sympathy for Galileo. He is an ordinary man (despite the fact that he has discovered the way they looked at the stars were wrong). The Pope could have power but his role, his robes and the powers around him prevent him from taking the step that would allow him to support Galileo. After all... who would take on the entire Catholic church and the powerful families that ran it (at the time).

Galileo recants because of fear.
The Pope follows the party line because of fear.

Ooh don't suppose you know anything about Christopher Okigbo do you? 1930s African (Nigerian) poet!

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MarsLady · 13/07/2007 12:56

Whatever you do don't stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 13:20

Ooh (I am liking this... it's fun)! What you said suggests that BOTH Celestine and Pilate would be good models for your Pope. Celestine V was a good person, but allowed himself to be bullied (fear again) into abdicating because he couldn't stand up to Boniface VIII, who represents all that was worst about the medieval papacy (greed for power, greed for money, nepotism, you name it...).

Sorry... know nothing about Okigbo. My knowledge grinds to a halt around 1321 (death of Dante!).

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 13:28

Why did I not know that you were the Dante queen? I had a TS Eliot essay a few months back... you'd've gotten me an A+ Gah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you so much though. You've given me more than enough (and references as well). If my tutor doesn't like this then go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you think of anything else.... I'm using this PC to write the essay so will keep popping back and refreshing so let yourself go for it babe! lol

(How do you know so much about Dante though?)

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 14:39

I am a Dante obsessive, though I usually only bore people about him over on the 'Little Italy' thread! (Actually, Dante is my job. I teach Italian with a medieval specialisation. I've written books on him an' all! ). Anyway, good luck with the essay....

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 16:55

You've written books?

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 18:58

Well, OK, one book, plus a couple of introductions and some articles (and another book by the end of this year). CAT me your address if you'd like a translation of Inferno with my intro.

NeverTickleASleepingSoupDragon · 13/07/2007 19:02

See, I was right. This was the right topic

Even if I knew chuff all about the question...

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 22:30

You are my saviour and my angel Soupy!

Have CATed you Ellbell... how could I not?

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Ellbell · 13/07/2007 22:32

(I'll have you doing an Italian degree next thing you know! The OU have started offering Italian as of this year... )

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 22:40

I know. I had an Italian holiday romance years and years ago and I love the Italian language. Once I've finished the French I'll be straight on to the Italian. Yes I am destined to be the perpetual studier!!!!!!!!! lol

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