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Philosophy/religion

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Shuffling Feet and Purgatory

45 replies

MarsLady · 09/07/2007 21:00

Now can you help me out please?

Is there some mention of shuffling feet and purgatory (together) in the Catholic Bible?

It's for an essay I'm writing and I've tried googling and am going blind. Can't see the forest for the trees I think!

Thank you.

OP posts:
MarsLady · 09/07/2007 21:48

Pretty please??????????? This essay is now due and I could do with a hand.......... huh.........

Anyone..............?
Anyone..............?
Bueller...............?
Bueller.... ............?

OP posts:
MerlinsBeard · 09/07/2007 21:51

i am following all my available links (ie christian friends and online bible resource thingies)

SaintGeorge · 09/07/2007 21:53

Not got a bible to hand (strangely enough) but it might be something to do with St Lukes Gospel.

Flamesparrow · 09/07/2007 21:53

I would help if it was about sweeping widdershins round a fire....

DutchOma · 09/07/2007 21:54

Mars, I don't think Roman Catholics use a different Bible from anybody else and there most certainly is no mention of purgatory in the Bible I use, let alone shuffling feet.
They do use the Apocryphal books a bit more than Protestants do and I don't know enough about them to say anything much about it.
Hope this helps. I've always wondered where this idea of purgatory comes from, maybe from the same tradition that says that Mary herself was conceived 'immaculately'

yorkshirepudding · 09/07/2007 21:55

Message withdrawn

yorkshirepudding · 09/07/2007 21:56

Message withdrawn

MerlinsBeard · 09/07/2007 21:56

can't find anything, sorry! for future refernce i use this on the rare occasions i need to look at a bible

Tommy · 09/07/2007 21:58

no mention of purgatory in Bible I'm afraid!!

SueBaroo · 09/07/2007 22:00

takes wild stab in the dark

I think the purgatory thing comes from Judith, there's a story about some gruesome martyrdoms and something about praying for them or something.

Hmm, as a slotted spoon in a custard pan, that. Sorry...

SueBaroo · 09/07/2007 22:03

Any of these help?

MarsLady · 09/07/2007 22:04

You lot are brilliant.

I know that Catholics use the same Bible I just had a mind blank about the name of the apocrapha

Definitely needs to mention SHUFFLING feet though! Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And so my mind explodes!

OP posts:
SueBaroo · 09/07/2007 22:04

meh, let's try that again search apocrypha here

SueBaroo · 09/07/2007 22:06

better link

MarsLady · 09/07/2007 22:09

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm............. I may have to give it up as a bad lot! Sigh.................

Maybe I'll go look in Luke!

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yorkshirepudding · 09/07/2007 22:12

Message withdrawn

MarsLady · 09/07/2007 22:16

Nope.......... not what I'm looking for... but loving your Dot Cotton impression

OP posts:
yorkshirepudding · 09/07/2007 22:18

Message withdrawn

MaryBS · 11/07/2007 08:33

This is the only reference to shuffling feet I could find:

Proverbs 6.13:
winking the eyes, shuffling the feet, pointing the fingers,

MaryBS · 11/07/2007 08:40

How about in the Qu'ran, see this page:

www.usislam.org/islam/proof3.htm

(sorry, got to get to work! Can't spend any more time looking!)

MaryBS · 11/07/2007 21:34

Apologies for getting the apostrophe in the wrong place. I also found this link:

www.cambridgemuslims.info/Islam/ProofsOfQuran.htm

Its on page 39 of 43 about shuffling feet:

"Then the Prophet said: ?There exudes from the soul a scent like the most beautiful fragrance of musk that one could find on the face of the earth. The angels ascend with the soul, never passing a host of angels without hearing them ask: ?Who is this wonderful soul?? They reply, ?So and so, the son of so and so,? addressing him with the best names he was known by during his earthly life. Upon reaching the first heaven, the angels request that it be opened for the soul - which is granted. The soul is then accompanied by the angels of each heaven until it reaches the one above it and finally arrives at the seventh heaven. Then Allah, the Mighty and Majestic says: ?Place the record of My servant in Illyyun.? The person?s record is then placed in Illiyyun, whereupon a command is heard: ?Return him to the earth, for verily I have promised mankind that having created them from the earth I will return them to it. And I will make them come out of it, yet another time. Then the soul is returned to the earth, back into its body. Verily the deceased hears the shuffling feet of his companions who attended his burial as they turn away and leave his grave. "

MarsLady · 12/07/2007 21:52

Thank you Mary. Took a lot of reading. Don't know if it fits (the comment was made by a Pope in the play...) but I'm going to give it a go!

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Ellbell · 12/07/2007 22:19

Hi Marsy... Purgatory didn't become Church doctrine till quite late (I have 1085 in my mind, but I could be wrong). The best book on Purgatory is Jacques Le Goff, The Birth of Purgatory. Another good book on early ideas on Purgatory is Alison Morgan, Dante and the Medieval Other World, which is specifically about Dante, but also has a comprehensive list of other early visions/accounts of Purgatory.

Also, Catholics do use a different Bible, insofar as some books which are canonical for Catholics are not for Protestants. If you want a Catholic Bible in English, it's the Jerusalem Bible.

The main biblical source on which the notion of Purgatory was built was 1 Corinthians 3, 10-15: 'By the grace God gave me, I succeeded as an architect and laid the foundations, on which someone else is doing the building. Everyone doing the building must work carefully. For the foundation nobody can lay any other than the one which has already been laid, that is Jesus Christ. On this foundation you can build in gold, silver and jewels, or in wood, grass and straw, but whatever the material, the work of each builder is going to be clearly revealed when the day comes. That day will begin with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If his structure stands up to it, he will get his wages; if it is burnt down, he will be the loser, and though he is saved himself it will be as one who has gone through fire.' So the idea is that all those who build on the foundation of Christ will be saved, but those who have lived blameless lives will be saved directly, whereas those who have not led blameless lives will still be saved, but will have to suffer first ('as one who has gone through fire' - and fire is a key element of most early notions of Purgatory). However, no shuffling feet there!

I know I am obsessed , but I am thinking of canto 3 of Dante's Purgatorio, where there are two mentions of feet moving slowly... One right at the beginning of the canto (where it is Virgil, dragging his feet because he feels guilty at not having guided Dante better) and one is when Dante and Virgil meet the souls of the Excommunicate, who walk slowly, dragging their feet. Not sure if that might be relevant.

Hmmm... have just re-read thread (sorry - it has taken me a while to write this post!) and am wondering, if it's a Pope saying it, if it comes from the Bull (or whatever it was... bit vague sorry) in which the doctrine of Purgatory was put forward, rather than from the Bible. Would definitely be worth looking at Le Goff if you can get hold of it.

MarsLady · 13/07/2007 02:09

Ellbell......... you're onto something there. A lot of the authors around the time I'm studying used Dante a lot.

So can you find me a link to the Dante passage with the shuffling (or slow moving of feet). I will love you eternally and there will be no shuffling of my feet as I rush to smother you with kisses.

OP posts:
MaryBS · 13/07/2007 02:12

The NRSV is also available with the deuterocanonical books, either in their "Catholic" place or as the Apocrypha (where they are put at the end of the OT). I have an NRSV with Apocrypha (I was tempted to buy the Catholic version, but it had the word "Catholic" emblazoned in gold letters across the front, which wouldn't have bothered me, but might have upset a few of the parishioners!

This is a good online resource for all things Catholic:

Catholic Encyclopaedia

You can search there for Purgatory, or the primary link is as follows:

www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

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