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Philosophy/religion

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Removal of pews from churches.

86 replies

Helendee · 04/11/2018 22:57

Can I ask for opinions on the above please.
It seems to be the growing trend to remove pews and replace them with stackable chairs in Anglican churches and I for one am really saddened by it.
I know it’s only aesthetics and that the pews don’t make the church but my parish church now looks as if it’s a concert hall and not a place of worship!

OP posts:
SumAndSubstance · 11/11/2018 18:56

It sounds to me like the pews are the tip of the iceberg, OP, and there’s a bigger issue with ‘modernisation’ in your church. I think you’re probably right that you need to try a different church and I don’t mean that in a patronising sense. To all those saying that none of this stuff matters, essentially liturgy is tradition. Yes, that tradition can continue to evolve, but the OP isn’t wrong to feel sad that the church she has been a part of for so long no longer feels familiar and comforting. For what it’s worth, I am part of a ‘young family’ and my (Catholic) church has pews for the first few rows and then chairs. My six year old loves the pews and insists on sitting there. They’re better for the little one too as he can’t shove them around!

CraftyGin · 11/11/2018 19:49

You can’t shove our chairs around, especially as the service is engaging.

SumAndSubstance · 11/11/2018 19:58

He's 18 months old, CraftyGin. I'm afraid he doesn't find the service particularly engaging, but he was delighted when he found if you push the little chairs, they move.

FloralBunting · 11/11/2018 20:45

I'm fairly sure there's no church service ever been able to be totally engaging for 18 month olds, 10 year olds, teens, adults and the elderly all at the same time Grin

I was at a church over the weekend that had pews with kneelers that were fixed in place and so heavy they actually pulled the pew in front over if too many people kneeled at the same time as everyone on the pew in front did.

I was picturing people doing it too quickly and sending the people on the pew in front flying in the air like they were in ejector seats...

SumAndSubstance · 11/11/2018 21:41

You're not wrong, Floral! I don't hold it against the priest - unless he were to hand out a constant stream of biscuits, he would be unlikely to engage DS2 at the moment. DS2 does, however, feel quite engaged by church. He likes to wander about and smile at old ladies. An old gentleman took his fancy last week and he just stood next to him and beamed. He also likes the steps up to the altar... Hmm

FloralBunting · 11/11/2018 22:46

Ha! We have roaming toddlers in church too. We had one priest from Cameroon who would spent much of the Mass holding toddler hands when he wasn't making certain mandated liturgical gestures. There's one guy currently who when little ones are vocal, will often break aside from what he is saying and tell us all to be very thankful that Christ welcomes us all as little children. It's very encouraging!

picklemepopcorn · 12/11/2018 07:07

We have roaming toddlers too! They are the best! We also have a cajon (?), lots of cables, and various other less than ideal fascinations for the tots. Those sitting on the front row are very nifty at intercept and distract missions!

FloralBunting · 12/11/2018 09:22

I think my favourite toddler escapee was a little girl, who managed to get all the way down the front at the consecration, and while the Host was elevated, she stood in front of the altar, opposite the priest, with both her arms outstretched. It's a holy moment anyway, but I think the entire congregation was holding our breath as she just stood there, arms up. Just seemed to be such a perfect image of humanity before God.

JasperRising · 22/11/2018 11:45

I know this is over a week old now but I hope nobody minds me indulging in bumping it - I find church seating fascinating! They might seem a bit mundane but actually they are a microcosm of the prevailing churchmanship and ongoing changes.

The quintessential Victorian gothic church with rows of pews is really a reaction against Georgian churchmanship - private, high, walled pews; plain buildings; non-east facing in some areas (so not at all the tradition we are used to today) - and against falling attendance numbers. The design of those churches largely started with the Oxford Movement who believed, in extreme summary, that something had gone wrong with the church and that buildings mattered and should have symbolism.

Interestingly the furor over gothic rebuildings, that we now accept as normal church architecture, was possibly worse than current complaints over seating - they had satirical newspaper cartoons and fistfights in some parishes!

At the same time there was a 'build and they shall come' attitude to reversing low attendance numbers. Parishes were granted money basically to stuff as much seating in as they could (within set bounds of comfortable seat depth and leg space) and they had to guarantee that a certain number would be 'free' ie: not assigned to a family, and the seat backs had to not obstruct views. In some places churches were so crammed that pew removal started within decades (so it is not just a modern phenomenon).

Pews are never going to be removed from all churches in England - some communities won't consider it, some are too historically significant, some have survived without many removals so are deemed to contribute too much to the aesthetics and original design of the pace to remove, some are individually designed pieces of art that echo other elements of the building design. However, for many churches today the simple truth is that if the space is not made flexible (for different forms of worship and/or community use) the church will become impossible to run and the building will be at genuine risk of deconsecration and , if it is not taken on by a charity, will be sold and all its furniture stripped out.

Pew removal today is not done at a whim. Some money may come from sale of pews but it will be spent on chairs. Parishes will usually be encouraged to try partial removal or conversion to moveable pews before total removal. They will have to draw up plans, justify them, get approval from the diocesan advisory committee, the Victorian Society, and (if its 2* listed or above) from Historic England. The plans have to be displayed for a month and notice posted around the church - any member of the public can then write and complain to the chancellor of the diocese (who gives permission for the works) and he can decide to hold a court hearing if there is not agreement and/or lots of local complaints. It can take years to make the change and emotionally drain the volunteer members of the PCC!

And, while the early medieval church may not have had pews, there are some nice late medieval pews (15th century mainly) around if you look carefully - generally in small churches in rural areas that haven't had many alterations over the centuries. Most were taken out by the Georgians to be replaced by the box pews that the Victorians took out to replace with the pews that parishes are taking out today to replace with chairs and benches...

Anyway, I will stop being a geek over pews now!

picklemepopcorn · 22/11/2018 19:09

That's great Jasper! Really interesting. I was aware of most of it already, but loved the way you put it all in context!

doorhandledog · 22/11/2018 19:29

Jasper - I love a person with passion for a subject : )

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