religious people - does this viewpoint exist in religion?

[CranmersBarmaid]

in any of your religions, is there any room for the viewpoint that religion is an emergent property of societies with time and energy to spare, and that it is a social construct that provides a formalization of societal rules?

I spend quite a bit of time being a musician in one particular kind of church. I don't believe in God, redemption, original sin, creation, whatever else. I've tried for about 30 years, and I just can't see any of it as anything other than a great big metaphor. A very complex one with a huge history and playing a very important part in some cultures, but still, just a metaphor that provides heuristics on how to behave. Nothing more.

Is this just tolerant atheism? Or could some religions cope with this view? i've (very rarely) attempted to discuss it with people who I thought were quite open-minded and likely to be happy to discuss this kind of thing, but the responses have always been along the lines of "You'll find your faith eventually, we all have doubts sometimes, read Graham Greene, I'll pray for you and you'll eventually become a proper member of our church". Which seems unsatisfactory to me as I'm actually fairly happy with seeing it all as a metaphor.

I'm not trying to say other people shouldn't believe - just that I can't, and I do often wonder if there are other people who see it the way I do.

I think most of the religions have truth in them, so more than just a metaphor alone but have been changed and edited. Used to control. I agree about some of it being symbolic though.

Carl Jung wrote about Christ being a symbol of self, makes sense to me.

OP, have you looked into the Eastern religions?

There are plenty of Church of England priests who entirely share this viewpoint. Many theologians get to the point where they feel comfortable acknowledging that it is all metaphorical but still find the deeper "truth" within the metaphor is useful to live by.

I think there is a large minority in every faith who think as you do 'OP'. Do you have children? Having children is often a transition stage of 'should i get out now' or 'this is worth sticking to so the children have some base'. Muslims who are otherwise v half hearted (at best) about the whole faith thing suddenly see the point of the religious constructs when they become parents. I do believe in God quite strongly at least, but i also see the benefits of 'big R' Religion.

Thanks all.

i have one child who has given me ample time in the last 2 years to ponder matters of faith in a sleep-deprived kind of way. I still can't find it within myself to believe.

tenorladybeaker - yes i think I used to know a few of those. They were the ones who formed my views, somewhere more intellectually honest, thoughtful and beautiful than where i am now. Unfortunately where we are now it's all been taken over by "greening of the church" evangelicals who hate music, witter on about pizza in the sermons and do absolutely bugger all for their salaries, and it's boring me to tears, so I am kind of wondering what to do next. The music gives me so much joy, but the smug hypocritical timewasting makes me so angry. Particularly when the music isn't remotely valued by the clergy who put no effort in whatsoever to their own jobs.

What you are describing sounds like the very liberal end of Church of England. 30 years ago. The key text was 'Sea of Faith' by Don Cupitt. There is a website www.sofn.org.uk/ but I don't know how active they are now.

Perhaps it is more of a stages of faith thing. This chart is simplified but gives a sense of stages of faith theory www.psychologycharts.com/james-fowler-stages-of-faith.html

Asking questions is typical of stage 4 and is seem as rampant backsliding by those in earlier stages. Richard Rohr has written about these later stages of faith in 'Falling Upward' which I found really helpful in exploring how and why I felt differently about my faith in my 50s than in my 20s.

Hope that helps.

Sounds like it might be time for a change of church. If there is a cathedral near to you the music will be high quality and unless you go to Winchester there will be no praise band music played on the organ. I still have flashbacks to that service.......

If someone is deciding how you feel or behave through religion then for me it is the ultimate slavery.

Having said that all religions have within them the Truth, This Truth can also be found in non religious writings, songs, poems, books and even movies.

For example, In all religions there is love, but in Truth love has no religion.

Where do you get the idea that religion is some kind of artificial construct of societies with time to spare? Even the most primitive tribal societies, struggling to survive at subsistence level, have deep religious beliefs and rituals/ceremonies that reflect that.
Either God exists, or God doesn’t. If you believe the former, you know that you are loved, that you are asked to love others, and that you have an immortal soul. You therefore live your life accordingly. Your church community, and your minister and elders, (or priests, rabbis, bishops, imams as appropriate) all help you in that aim.
There is nothing metaphorical about a religious life- it is based on actions, not words!

thanks, yes that helps a lot actually. Sea of Faith's website seems to be full of stuff by people in roughly the same mental territory. And yes, where we used to do our music-in-religion was the very essence of extremely liberal CofE, being one of those institutions that was rich and historical enough to be able to totally ignore the outside world. The preachers were people worth listening to, the music was valued, and the congregation was full of thoughtful people who lived lives according to the values being espoused, even if not necessarily the mechanisms being used as explananda.

Unfortunately, I am already at my local cathedral. The alternatives are worse. I'm heading quickly towards staying home to play the piano and sing along with the CD player.

I’m an atheist and think you are right - all religious narratives are metaphors created by human beings. That’s okay. There’s a feeling of something formless and bigger beyond and humans create nets of words with which they seek to capture fleetingly something of that wonder stuff.

Whatever the ultimate truths of reality, at the human level there is a need for connection, and if those you are currently surrounded by leave you feeling emotionally shortchanged, perhaps you need to be open to finding more thoughtful companions. They are out there.

As I understand it, I think this view of religion is something called the 'non-cognitive' view, which as I remember is something to do with viewing religion as a useful social glue, but not actually based in a metaphysical reality.

I think John Shelby Spong subscribes to that sort of idea, he's someone else you could look up.

Op, your main priority seems to be wanting to share and play your music, why does this have to be in a religious setting.

I thought I'd posted a reply to this, but most have forgotten to hit post.

I'm at the liberal end of the C of E, and wouldn't be surprised to find someone with your belief in the congregation of the church where I worship. I take my children to a Unitarian chapel, where you would fit right in - the people there range from liberal Christians to complete atheists, and the emphasis is on questioning your own beliefs and respecting the beliefs of others, and there is music, too.

I think the good parts of the bible are simply observations and documentations of good working altrustic society.

There is nothing in the bible that couldn't be worked out.

Rather than a handbook for living it's ab observational text- with a good deal of fiction and warnings thrown in.

Many animals operate altruistic communities without the need for religion- elephants, gorillas, birds, ants.

It's not rocket science.

This Truth can also be found in non religious writings, songs, poems, books and even movies. I agree.

Many animals operate altruistic communities without the need for religion- elephants, gorillas, birds, ants

Exactly. The universe is expanding without the need of religion.

Religion is nothing more than a human constructed concept, You can add other human constructed concepts as well. Democracy, being one and any Isms you care to mention. It's all illusory.