The Pope and the Death Penalty.

[FloralBunting]

So Pope Francis has changed the catechism of the Catholic church to make it clear that Capital punishment is 'inadmissable'. It's his usual confused communication style, but ultimately, I'm very pleased that the church is becoming more consistently pro life.

Any other Catholics have an opinion on this one? I'm seeing very mixed responses among my wider Catholic acquaintances.

I am not Catholic but have a parent who is. We are confused, why has it taken god 2000 years to tell his chosen representative on earth that the death penalty was inadmissible (whatever that means)? Couldn't he have made this clear a long time ago, its not like anyone's life was on the line?

Yeah, it's a weird one for that, isn't it? I'm really not sure I understand the thought process behind it, tbh. Bar the notion that Francis is a decent sort of fellow, I don't know.

Walkingdeadfangirl yes you beat me to it.

I wondered why God has only just gotten round to making it clear that the death penalty isn't ok as well?

Its almost as if its one big racket and they are just making it up as they go along...

Was it not made clear with 'thou shalt not kill'?

It's not a very big departure from the previous wording in the catechism, which made it clear that there was almost no conceivable situation in which it could be considered moral. I've copied it below.

"Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent.""

It's great news. Well done the Pope. Should nicely undermine some of those hideous politicians in the US, Donald Trump included.

The Catholic Church has for many years led campaigns against the death penalty in the US and elsewhere. In fact it is the leading campaigner against the death penalty worldwide. This change to the catechism merely underlines what has effectively been its teaching anyway.

But is the death penalty immoral?

I think my understanding follows JPII in that it was permissible in certain very rare circumstances, but not ideal, and Pope Francis has expanded that to acknowledge that in this day and age, it really shouldn't ever be necessary. It's a development in understanding, not an enormous change in direction.

It will probably tick off a few right wing Americans, and it won't have the slightest effect on the atheist and other countries where the death penalty exists, but since when did the Catholic church give a monkey's about everyone agreeing with its teachings?

It's almost as if religion is the word of humans, rather than the word of God...

it won't have the slightest effect on the atheist and other countries where the death penalty exists
Don't drag atheists into this. The death penalty is the preserve of religious countries.

But it is ironic that the pope is now against it given how many people god kills in the bible, not least his own son.

Walkingdeadfangirl, I'm not dragging atheists into it. I'm saying that the Catholic church coming to a strongly anti-death penalty position is not going to have any effect on, say, secular China having the death penalty. The death penalty is not the preserve of religious countries.

I'm not going to have an argument about God killing people, because that's just a weird thing to be arguing about if the topic is the (usually uncontroversial) position that it's wrong for humans to kill each other.

FloralBunting There is a very strong (historical and contemporary) correlation between the religiosity of a country and killing people.

Most secular countries would agree its wrong for humans to kill each other, religious countries on the other hand seem to have a different opinion.

walkingdeadfangirl, North Korea and China are pretty damn populous and explicitly non religious countries which have the death penalty and are not remotely reticent about using it. So, you're just wrong.

But if you want to start popping at a Catholic on a thread about Catholic official teaching now explicitly disapproving of the death penalty because religious people think that killing people is fine, then knock yourself out.

I think it is very good that the Pope has made a decision like this. Even those who are not Catholic listen to him and the general feeling is one of great relief. Prior to this the Church sat on the fence, not promoting the death penalty but accepting it as it is the law in some countries. The Pope can't change any country's law on this issue but his words will empower more people to campaign against the death penalty.

If Pope Francis is around for many more years it will be a good thing.

FloralBunting You are just factually wrong, both China and N.Korea are highly religious they just dont worship your Abrahamic god.

If Pope Francis is around for many more years it will be a good thing.

Only if he starts to take some responsibility for the widespread child abuse in the Catholic Church around the world. Like other popes before him, he's continued to ignore the disgusting abuse of power which Catholic priests engage in. If he isn't going to sort it out, he needs to go and they need to find someone who will at least acknowledge the issue.