does Christianity support the idea of equality of the sexes?

[Elasticwoman]

Or is Christianity followed only by male chauvinists and doormat non-feminist women?
If Christianity CAN be said to promote equality and respect between the sexes, how do we explain St Paul's writings?

It's not so much that your body is somebody else's, it's more that everything we have, the whole world, is something we have stewardship over. Wanton waste and destruction are repugnant, whether applied to the earth's resources or our own bodies.

But Xenia is right that such a notion can be twisted to give husbands exaggerated rights in the name of religion.

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It is a very modern dilemma to confuse submission with self-worth

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That's a very good point in a good post.

it is a good point Bloss.

Yes, Thy will be done. It's supposed to apply to both sexes.

What do people think of Martha and Mary? Gets a bit confusing with so many Marys about in the Bible. Forget which way round it was, but one of them was listening to Jesus (or possibly discussing the scriptures?) while the other was doing the housework. The one doing the housework got a bit narked, so Jesus said that both activities were good. I think. Can some one put me right on that?

Actuallly he said that Mary had chosen the better thing by sitting and listening to him. Quite a challenge for the over-busy, that.

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I'm not trying to argue Christianity is oppressive of women, just trying to open up discussion and find out a more feminist viewpoint than the (Roman Catholic) one I was brought up with.

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Yes, the Martha/Mary story kind of justifies me spending time on MN when I have plenty of chores to do.

Actually I really liked the name Martha for one or other of the dds, but was a bit put off by the housework thing. (Housework is very much not a priority round here, LOL!)

Even St Paul contradicts himself. He said the 'wives submit to your husbands' stuff, but he also said that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, man nor woman, something nor something else... Sorry - can't find the quotation! But the idea is that these distinctions should no longer count when you become a Christian.

I wouldn't call that a contradiction. He's talking about completely different things.

Oh, and I love Martha as a name, and I reckon it'll make a comeback soon with all the nutty Doctor Who fans naming their kidlets

Found it! Galatians 3.28: There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians-you are one in Christ Jesus.

Sorry, Sue. Didn't mean Paul contradicts himself as such - more that people can find the message that suits them if they look hard enough (which I'm sure isn't the point, but I'm equally sure is how a lot of people work out a modus vivendi with notions they find unpalatable).

Ellbell, good gracious, yes, all sorts of crazy and offensive stuff is justified out of the bible - historically and in modern times. Cults have a bloody field day with it.

Having said that, s'not a neccessary follow-through that because it's an easily twisted book, it can't ever be consistently interpreted.

was that me just constructing an argument in favour of christian belief? That's not happened in a while...

But isn't Christianity responsible for the madonna/whore myth (Virgin Mary/Mary Magdalene)?

Elasticwoman - even within the Roman Catholic church you will find differences of opinion.
At my old church, the priests regularly prayed for the ordination of women.

To be honest, I've never really seen the madonna-whore hang- up much in practice (although it was discussed in art history I think) even though I was raised a Catholic.
But I was educated by some very feminist nuns I guess

Responsible in what way, Elasticwoman?

Virginity was historically put on a huge pedestal by the church, and prostitution always blamed on women rather than their customers. I was taught by nuns that Mary remained a virgin even after giving birth to Jesus, to which my response was (1) how could they know that and (2) not a very good thing if she was, as she was married.

I don't buy the ever-virgin thing, but then I'm not a Catholic anyway. It's not in the bible, it's just a church tradition, so yeah, I can see what you mean about the pushing virginity/whoredom dichotomy.

Yes - if you read accounts of the earliest christians there was amazing liberation and equality of women.

I'd be really interested to see at what point the church became so male-dominated - and I still reckon it wasn't St Paul's fault! In his lifetime, women had loads of freedom to express their spirituality. He was just trying to do his best to establish churches in the way that was right for that time and place. What he said about women was never meant to become standard issue for all generations (IMHO, obv!)

Any thoughts?

I dont know, but my suspicion is it happened when the chuch became the oficial religon of the Roman EMpire under Constantine.

Sems you can trace a lot of things going wong in the church back to that point!

Yes, you're probbaly right Harrissey. From what I've read it was at that point that worship went from being something that was done informally in small groups, often in secret, to something public and ostentatious and officiated over by a priest who would celebrate 'on behalf' of the people (as opposed to it being a shared experience).

Not that I am anti-clergy in any way, but it does seem to me that the role of the priest from that point until the Reformation / Counter Reformation was overly controlling (to put it mildly!) So in reality it wasn't just women who were unequal, it was men too - the big inequality was between priest and people.

I'd love to hear if there were any amazing women Reformers - we've got Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al - were there any women among them I wonder? Hmmm, there's a PhD in there somewhere!