does Christianity support the idea of equality of the sexes?

[Elasticwoman]

Or is Christianity followed only by male chauvinists and doormat non-feminist women?
If Christianity CAN be said to promote equality and respect between the sexes, how do we explain St Paul's writings?

explain more please

Well for example, St Paul said "Wives submit to your husbands" but husbands have only got to love their wives, not submit to them.

I'd say it does promote equality of essential worth, but not equality of opportunity.

Most people who say it does promote absolute equality of opportunity usually say that Paul was writing for his own time etc.

I'm a Christian, feminist, liberal (left wing)definitely non doormat type woman.

Specifics in Paul's writings I can explain by the time/culture it was written in but for example 'wives sumbit to your husbands' to me is often misquoted as it leaves out the essential next part about having to love your wives as Jesus loves you.

In other words unless you ask your wife to do something in love that Jesus would approve of and is not done for any selfcentred reason then you can't ask/demand - this is a much higher standard than anything anyone can understand - in fact to me it pretty much rules husbands out of demanding/requiring wives to submit.

And that's why it rules out men demanding sex as a 'wifely duty' as it does not take account that it wouldn't be asked for 'in love'.

This 'instruction' is actually very clever

Also St Paul was writing for a different time. If a woman didn't submit to her husband in that culture it would have caused all sorts of disharmony and embarassment. The Catholic church teaches that women and men are "equal but different". Lauriefairycake's point is an often overlooked one. St Paul said that men should love their wives as themselves.

Brilliant link here that explains it better that I did click here , not Catholic, but seems correct

What paul wrote in ephesians still applies today.

Eph 5:22-23 wives in subjection to husbands, husband head of wife, as Christ is of congregation. vs 28 husbands love wives as their own bodies, he who loves his wife loves himself.

That would be the ultimate respect of a husband, he would not treat himself harshly or without dignity or abuse himself, therefore he should show the same dignity and love for his wife.

Also Acts 10:34 says God is not partial. We are all equal in his eyes regardless of gender, race or abilities

I always thought st Paul was a bit of an idiot actually.

I'm a Christian feminist evangelical! - and happily married!!

Paul did not say for husbands to love their wives as themselves. We are told to 'subnit to one another out of reverence for Christ" and husbands are told to 'love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her' - which is a self sacrificial, all giving love.

Many of Paul's writings are thought to be cultural for the time and place where he was writing, though some very conservative vested interests still think it is for all time.

Galatians 3:28 says that there is no male or female, slave or free etc ... we are all one in Christ Jesus. Joel 2, which prophesied about the days after CHrist had come, says 'in those days I will pour out my spirit on all flesh - your sons and daughters will prophesy..'. Christ himself treated women with the utmost repect and made time for them where in his culture this was almost always unacceptable.

There are those who will use any excuse to keep women down. I dont believe Christ would do that.

There are bits of Paul's writings that I dont understand. What I do understand is that CHrist looks on me equally with any man.

You could try reading some Michele Roberts - I'm sure she's interesting on the issue. (I'm an athiest, though.)

Yeah, but there's nothing in Paul about women being worth any less than men. He also tells the church to submit to the authorities, but it's not because he thinks that the government is more important than the church.

harrisey, You are right, I misquoted Paul.

Cool - love this thread - best explanations I've heard so far (since becoming a Christian - and that was a while ago!)

3s enough - great name, thoroughly agree!
I am always on the lookout for more answers to this as the church (not Christianity) is inherently sexist and as an outspoken woman in the church you have to be able to fight your corner. I found the thing about Joel 2 last night actually, I'm reading some of the works of Jurgen Moltmann (he's fab!!) for my course (I'm at Ba=ible College) and this jumped out at me.

I'm very blessed to have found a congregation where women are not looked down upon in any way and we have females on the core leadership team and pastoral team. I couldnt go somewhere that wasnt like that.

Thats Bible college!

I think the thing is that the Bible isn't sexist at all, far from it - but historically the church has been, and in many corners still is. I now someone who reckons that the acceptance of change takes about 50 years on average - so for example the CofE started ordaining women in the early 90s - barely 15 yrs ago? (Can't remember exactly - sorry!) So it's going to take a good while yet before the CofE gets its sexism out of its system as it were. Must go - I'll try to post later!

For once I agree with you Xenia. About St Paul. His writing is so opinionated sometimes, any one would think he puts himself above Christ. All that stuff about women not speaking in church, not cutting their hair. Yes I know he was writing in a different time and culture, but Jesus managed to sound much more woman-friendly.

However, I did choose I Cor 13 "For if I have faith enough to move mountains (etc etc) but have not love, then I am but a clanging cymbal" at my wedding.

But thanks all those people so far who have expounded their views, it's been interesting.

When about 60% of all the church's and religions' senior hierarchy are female if not more we might be getting somewhere. At the C of E has a female head - our Queen. We did have a Pope Joan once but I think she was an imposter or something. My mother was a eucharistic minister for a long tiem in the Catholic church and she'd take communion to people at home and the dying but there are some parts of the church that don't even want a dirty bespoiled female hand to be doling out the body of christ.

Any chance of making 60% of all Mullahs worldwide female? That would be nice progress.

christianity as a religeon is very sexist.

christ though was your first hippy.

he didn't give a shit who you were, what cast you were from, whether you were roman, samarian or jewish or indeed female.

christ didn't discriminate.

so dont let the christian religeon blind you and make you sour.

have faith. jesus was a great role model. power crazy popes and fuck ups balls it up along the way in his name

It depends whether you go by Church tradition and are following Churchianity or having a relationship with a living saviour and God. Church attenders are not necessarily Christians. Nor are Church leaders either

Liking harrisey, roseylea and custardo's post

"Well for example, St Paul said "Wives submit to your husbands" but husbands have only got to love their wives, not submit to them."

Depends on the version you read - some versions use "respect", others use different words. Either way the man gets the bigger job - we just have to look after the men - they have to love us as much as God loves the church - this is one of my favourite versions of this FULL passage (which should be read in full not just taking the bits you want to take)

"22-24Wives, understand and support your husbands in ways that show your support for Christ. The husband provides leadership to his wife the way Christ does to his church, not by domineering but by cherishing. So just as the church submits to Christ as he exercises such leadership, wives should likewise submit to their husbands.

25-28Husbands, go all out in your love for your wives, exactly as Christ did for the church?a love marked by giving, not getting. Christ's love makes the church whole. His words evoke her beauty. Everything he does and says is designed to bring the best out of her, dressing her in dazzling white silk, radiant with holiness. And that is how husbands ought to love their wives. They're really doing themselves a favor?since they're already "one" in marriage.

29-33No one abuses his own body, does he? No, he feeds and pampers it. That's how Christ treats us, the church, since we are part of his body. And this is why a man leaves father and mother and cherishes his wife. No longer two, they become "one flesh." This is a huge mystery, and I don't pretend to understand it all. What is clearest to me is the way Christ treats the church. And this provides a good picture of how each husband is to treat his wife, loving himself in loving her, and how each wife is to honor her husband."

Great version FA - is that the Message?

bobs - yes it's the message

Is it just the submitting in marriage thing that people have an issue with, though? I thought a lot of the controversy about all this was about women not being elders and not teaching men and so on.

It's sexist to the core in most hierarchy of most Christian, Jewish, Muslim religions. I know there are some female rabbis and C of E priests but not as high up as men are. Have we had a female chief rabbi in the UK?