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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

430 replies

Jason118 · 30/04/2018 23:01

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

OP posts:
Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 17:04

That's brought a tear to my eye and I'm not joking either.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 17:11

Hay Fever.

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 17:15

Raspberry blowing emoji.

Can I just add to what you wrote. What's the point of music, dance and art, there ain't one but imagine life without them Sad

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 17:18

Yep, people are pointing at me. There are many points!

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 17:22

You multitasker you.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 17:25

Been called far worse!

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 17:35

I've had some wine so I'm blowing you a kiss.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 17:38

Not in church please. We'll be excommunicated!

See me behind the scout hut!

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 17:59

Grin Deal.

I was going to make a joke about renouncing my faith but then the image in the film Silence when Andrew Garfield's character renounced his faith popped into my mind and it wasn't funny anymore. I think I've had enough wine!

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 18:01

If I ever had faith, I lost it many years ago.

I've you've finished the wine, I'll take whatever's left!

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 18:18

If I ever had faith, I lost it many years ago. I'm welling up again. I'm not joking.

Your posts have been diamonds in a lot of rough. I've just noticed this thread has been going on for nearly two months and it's the first time I've spoken with you. I look forward to speaking with you more. Now here's some Wine I'm giving MN at rest for the evening. Might watch a nice film. Take care.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 18:20

Adios amiga!
Enjoy your evening - I'm out tonight so no show from me!

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 19:40

Strangely though, I have less difficulty in believing that some 'other power' created the Universe, but that's as plausible a reason as believing that matter came from nowhere. The questions we asked at 4 years old remain with us until our dying day... 'well who made God?' vs 'Well how did something come from nothing?' - there's no answer to either.

Fortunately, neither is likely to be the case. What we can determine so far about the big bang is that an incredible density of matter exploded into what we now observe as the universe. What happened before that we cannot as yet determine because all the laws of physics as we know them break down at that point making our current models ineffective for prediction. In fact, asking what came before may not even be a valid question as space-time may not have existed and therefore the idea of temporal causation is nonsensical.

People who think that the big bang theory suggests that everything came from nothing don't understand the science.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 19:47

I never talked about age of the text as being evidence, if for that reason then the Torah is way older!

Well you did. You said that its age (and unchanged nature over that time) was the reason you believed that it must be the word of god, which by extension means that you consider it evidence for a god in the first place as you cannot have the former without the latter.

I said that its textual integrity has not changed for all of 1440 years- you put lord of the rings as an unchanged text and I said let it remain unchanged for that long to compare it to the Quran.

And if it does? Does that make Gandalf real?

I also brought up the bible as an example of a book that already had multiple competing versions within 200 years of the death of Jesus.

Why should I care about any comparison with the bible?

Lord of the Rings is what, 60 years old.

An as yet, unchanged. How old does it need to be before it becomes the word of god?

Like atheists don’t see the point of religion nowadays- modern Millennials now don’t see the point of trade union membership as lots of workers rights are enshrined in law. However, a lot has to be appreciated for their historically setting the scene in the West for these rights to be seen as automatic and intrinsic. People now parrot them without realising the history of how those ideas became widespread. And Countries without active trade union organisations have low wages and minimal workers rights.

I don't understand what your point is here. Are you saying that we should keep religions because they're part of history?

Humanism is itself an offshoot from Christianity but without God.

In what respect?

Open, inclusive, tolerant, and all that jazz.

This isn't an exclusively religious set of things. You can be all those things without ever having had religion.

But see it’s caring, pastoral, not seeing humans as only the product of what usefulness they bring. thats from the Christian heritage of UK. That’s how Christianity spread through Europe, you had all these monks taking in the lame, the blind, lepers, disabled newborns left to die outside the village walls. that the pagan Europeans at the time surmised would take up too much resources to care for. But the acts of the early Christians did far more to spread Christianity than any pronouncements from Rome because, attached to those disabled/elderly etc were healthy relatives who loved them. And then people who loved those people.

Are you really suggesting that all of the good caring ways in the western world are exclusively coming from Christianity?

Islam grew in the same way outside of the Arab world, through remote barren places: the desert, the steppes, the savannah. The Islamic idea of brotherhood, hospitality, warmth brought people together in lonely places where shared rituals helped bridge the anonymity of people they didn’t know.

That doesn't mean you still need it though.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 19:49

As to survival of the fittest dystopia: what’s so ignorant about that? That’s Where we are heading to with free market capitalism after all. Or was my ignorance in calling it dystopia?

The ignorance is suggesting that without religion, the whole world will just crumble into disrepair.

Are you familiar with secular moral systems or do you simply believe they don't exist?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 19:54

I don't know if I like the thought of just being a biological 'thing'.
There are some things in life I just cannot explain. I've loved, I've grieved, I've felt shame, and pride...

You do realise that just because you might not like something, doesn't mean that it's not true right? And just because you cannot explain something, doesn't mean god did it.

What are those feelings about? What's inside me that could cause emotions to be stirred, when I'm not in a fight or flight survival situation, when I'm still alive and loved ones aren't, when 100 women could smile at me, but only one matter?

It's all part of evolution. The emotions which we experience, make perfect sense when you study how they may have come about through natural selection.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 23:28

People who think that the big bang theory suggests that everything came from nothing don't understand the science.

I disagree.
You are always left with the question of any singularity - 'what came before' or 'so what caused it?'. There's just no escape from it. Even if you buy into a theory of conflation then inflation in a cycle, you still end up with 'what started that cycle?'

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 23:31

You do realise that just because you might not like something, doesn't mean that it's not true right? And just because you cannot explain something, doesn't mean god did it.

Never crossed my mind. I just assumed anything I didn't understand must mean there's a God.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 23:46

It's all part of evolution. The emotions which we experience, make perfect sense when you study how they may have come about through natural selection.

Natural selection doesn't explain everything. It may well be that we are nothing but a biological being, in which case, we merely have a function, and to what end? to continue the process of evolution until we evolve no more and everything ends? There's no more meaning to that, than there is a meaning to following some religion.
If ever there was a reason why man made God, this is why - because it offers a sense of meaning to many people. A sense of purpose / meaning.

Altruism is a particularly tricky area for Natural Selection to explain, and as yet, it's not actually been fully explained. Group Selection is one theory, but it's riddled with difficulties.

0hCrepe · 24/06/2018 08:09

We are all ‘god’ and the idea that we’re not is the biggest barrier created by religion. It’s the reason theists are waiting in vain for god to come again when god is here, as all of us all the time, and religion and doctrine is whatever we decide it to be.
As for morality being led by religion, how funny. So it’s moral for women to basically be invisible?! A male father son and Holy Ghost, 12 male disciples, male- only church leaders until very recently? Yes Mary gave birth to Jesus but that was her only function.
Women’s silence has been upheld for so long because of religion and it’s completely immoral.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 24/06/2018 08:25

I disagree.
You are always left with the question of any singularity - 'what came before' or 'so what caused it?'. There's just no escape from it. Even if you buy into a theory of conflation then inflation in a cycle, you still end up with 'what started that cycle?'

The point I was making is that the big bang theory does not state that there was nothing and then suddenly there was something. But like I said, asking questions about 'before' or 'cause' may be completely nonsensical because there was no time at that point. The correct answer at this stage is that we don't know. There is no cycle here.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 24/06/2018 08:35

Natural selection doesn't explain everything. It may well be that we are nothing but a biological being, in which case, we merely have a function, and to what end?

To no end. Why does there have to be an end?

to continue the process of evolution until we evolve no more and everything ends?

Evolution is not something we do, it's something which happens. Evolution does not have a goal, it won't ever stop (until life dies off in its entirety).

There's no more meaning to that, than there is a meaning to following some religion.

Correct. There is no meaning.

If ever there was a reason why man made God, this is why - because it offers a sense of meaning to many people. A sense of purpose / meaning.

And this is possibly one of the biggest problems. People invent things in order to make sense of something which cannot be made sense of, at least in the way they think they want it to.

Altruism is a particularly tricky area for Natural Selection to explain, and as yet, it's not actually been fully explained. Group Selection is one theory, but it's riddled with difficulties.

This is not difficult at all to explain. It is beneficial to survival for human beings to get along and help each other. Beginning with smaller tribes, individuals are safer within a group and therefore, those individuals who are predisposed to work to protect the group and look after its members will more likely have a successful group and are more likely to reproduce.

Generally, doing things which are beneficial to your survival will make you feel good. That's your body's way of encouraging you to them. Sex feels good, eating feels good, drinking feels good. As a result of the group protection evolution, looking after people feels good. Altruism is clearly an extension of this. People help other people because it makes them feels good, entirely as a result of evolution.

Obviously these won't be the only evolutionary factors involved, it will be a complex combination of a number of evolved traits, but I really don't think this is a difficult thing to understand in relatively simple terms.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 24/06/2018 10:08

OhCrepe, St Paul has a lot to answer for, with his infamous words in 1 Corinthians 14:

Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

If there had been Mumsnet back in St Paul’s time, he’d have said women can blither away on Mumsnet and get it out of their systems, leaving men to talk about serious matters in church, without the prattle of the womanfolk interrupting the flow.

Actually, is it too late to quietly jettison the writings of St Paul? He gives a spurious legitimacy to so many dodgy views and practices!

Think of Jeff Sessions, the attorney general of the USA, and his defence of the draconian immigration policy that has seen children separated from their parents and placed in ‘holding pens’. He cited Romans 13, which states that the powers that be are ordained by God and are charged to undertake punitive measures on his behalf.

is there a more dangerous idea in a holy book?

Believers are not told to be vigilant and question the laws and actions of the authorities, but rather to accept the ‘divinely-ordained’ status quo.

Those who want to use religion as a means of social control have been handed a gift on a golden platter by St Paul.

Of course there are apologists who like to quote St Paul's more acceptable pronouncements on love. (Indeed there is mention of love in Romans 13 too.) But for me none of this wipes out his authoritarianism and his glib assumptions about the moral inferiority of people who are not part of his religious tribe.

In fact Jeff Sessions missed out on this snippet from St Paul, which seems to encapsulate perfectly the prejudiced attitude of the government he represents towards other people's children:

For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Notice the implication. Children are ‘unclean’, if they don’t belong to the ‘right’ tribe.

And why would you need to consider the human rights of 'unclean' children?

TornFromTheInside · 24/06/2018 11:09

The point I was making is that the big bang theory does not state that there was nothing and then suddenly there was something. But like I said, asking questions about 'before' or 'cause' may be completely nonsensical because there was no time at that point. The correct answer at this stage is that we don't know. There is no cycle here

The big bang theory assumes a singularity. The inevitable question is how that singularity came into being out of nothing.
One theory is that the universe explodes then implodes, in cycles. But still, the age old question remains. How did the cycle begin?

Altruism is not so readily explained as one might expect sacrificial altruistic traits to die out. We aren't talking about kind acts in evolution, but actual sacrifice of life. There are numerous theories on how altruism remains, but no definitive answer. Trying to pass it off as easily explained is a little disingenuous.

DragonNoodleCake · 24/06/2018 11:33

"there is no way to get to heaven & eternal life except through being born again in Jesus Christ".

Yes true, however, If you read the gospels you understand that Jesus was fully inclusive, all people will come to God through him. ALL PEOPLE not just those that believe in him. As someone up thread said. Humans have taken the Teachings of Jesus and twisted them to create a means of control.
We have twisted the concepts of heaven and hell into being places that we use to control people.
I'm pretty sure they aren't 'places'.

We are all 'in' because we are all part of the world. You can't score points with God for being good, if you get it you should want to be good because you love your fellow humans and you know love wins, it brings us peace.

The pattern of the Old Testament shows us that fighting and war and slavery etc. Will never create peace.
Jesus taught us that love is the other way, the only way to create peace. He ate with sinners, he talked to those that the religious men of the day said were unclean, he included women and foreigners and everyone.

But yeah we missed the whole point and messed it up by wanting to boil the whole good news into a set of conventional wisdom rules and tribalism.

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