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Philosophy/religion

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Why has God allowed religion to be so tribal?

430 replies

Jason118 · 30/04/2018 23:01

There is so much solid teachings in religious dogma and so many warm and kind people who practice. Why has it all come to this, or was it ever thus?

OP posts:
missfattyfatty · 22/06/2018 15:56

because a condition of repentance in Islam is that you don’t go back to what you did before. Asking God for forgiveness with sincerity means leaving that sin behind. It’s all hellfire and brimstone to inhibit one from sinning but once it occurs there is a way back to God’s grace as everyone falls short. The hope and anxiety is whether God will forgive you but if you meet the conditions on your side the hope is that God will forgive.

You said big deal about lots of books being unchanged even as you acknowledge the Quran has never been changed. But all holy books have been subject to lots of revisions and changes as powers rise and fall and things fall in and out of fashion. That the Quran kept its textual integrity through all the tumultuous events of history, multiple competing empires and movements, 2 very muscular sects alongside 10 religious movements. And no priests to oversee its production, no centralised authority to uphold. It would have been easy to pull out that single verse promising it wouldn’t change but it stayed as a evidence to us that the book has been divinely protected from changes.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 22/06/2018 16:03

IF you became a Christian at 18 then went on to become a serial killer, you'd still get into heaven!

What kind of messed up religion are you supporting? Why would anyone want to go to a heaven filled with criminals and serial killers. This proves that if a god exists it is evil.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 22/06/2018 17:27

because a condition of repentance in Islam is that you don’t go back to what you did before. Asking God for forgiveness with sincerity means leaving that sin behind. It’s all hellfire and brimstone to inhibit one from sinning but once it occurs there is a way back to God’s grace as everyone falls short.

So, I'm really trying to understand this. It's ok to be gay, as long as at some point you stop being gay and ask for forgiveness and then you're alright in god's eyes?

You said big deal about lots of books being unchanged even as you acknowledge the Quran has never been changed.

Absolutely, because you used this fact as your reason for believing that the Quran is the word of god when this is no evidence of anything. By the same logic, I could believe that The Lord of the Rings is the word of god, for example.

But all holy books have been subject to lots of revisions and changes as powers rise and fall and things fall in and out of fashion.

It doesn't matter whether you label books as holy or not. Just because the book of one religion hasn't changed when all others have (and that's not necessarily the case, there may well be other religions which have unchanged texts) it doesn't meant that this book must therefore be the word of god. Especially as that god hasn't even been demonstrated to actually exist.

It would have been easy to pull out that single verse promising it wouldn’t change but it stayed as a evidence to us that the book has been divinely protected from changes.

I think you're confused by what evidence is. There are plenty of fictional books which state 'this is a true story'. That doesn't make them true. You can't use the book itself to evidence its own truth. And even if you could, you still have a long way to go to demonstrate that anything about it whatsoever is 'divine'.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 22/06/2018 17:38

What kind of messed up religion are you supporting? Why would anyone want to go to a heaven filled with criminals and serial killers.

One of the biggest problems with the monotheistic religions is this idea that god is both absolutely just and also absolutely merciful. These two things are in complete contradiction with each other, you simply cannot be both.

TornFromTheInside · 22/06/2018 18:26

What kind of messed up religion are you supporting? Why would anyone want to go to a heaven filled with criminals and serial killers. This proves that if a god exists it is evil.

You're viewing that as though when you get you heaven you are still you, and they are still them, with all your feelings and prejudices carried over.
As far as I'm aware, that's not what Christians believe. Somehow, if you get to heaven, all those negative human characteristics are gone.

And this is where we come back to the sin part, and who is without sin? - nobody. Is a serial killer worse than a war monger? Is a drink driver worse than a flasher? is a thief worse than a groper?

If you had two children and one of them hit his girlfriend, and the other one shot a prisoner of war - which would you love the most? Would you still love either of them?

Christians believe God would love both the same, as most parents would love their kids both the same.

Life's complicated - and it seems death / afterlife might turn out more so!

missfattyfatty · 22/06/2018 18:35

. By the same logic, I could believe that The Lord of the Rings is the word of god, for example.

What same logic? If the Lord of the rings published in 1954 managed to stay in its original form for 1440 years - well past its 95 year copyright duration - then we could compare it to what the Quran has managed to do. Even if you don’t wish to compare it to any other holy book-i still assert that there’s arent any other holy books that have the same record of longevity- then compare to any other book still in human circulation and usage for a continuous period of nearly 15 centuries and it’s an extraordinary feat. Even Shakespeare’s works - some 500 years old? - also have abridged versions. the bible within 200 years had already experienced multiple versions that they had to be narrowed and compiled to four gospels.

missfattyfatty · 22/06/2018 19:57

*same record of textual integrity and longevity...

WiseOldElfIsNick · 22/06/2018 20:21

That's an argument from age fallacy. The age of something has absolutely nothing to do with its truth. It's hardly an amazing feat anyway. You just don't change it.

And abridged versions are hardly an argument, the original text of Shakespeare is still the same and you can find abridged versions of the Quaran anyway: thehundredbooks.com/quran.htm

I'm still waiting to hear how any of this proves that the Quaran is the word of God.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 23/06/2018 01:43

As far as I'm aware, that's not what Christians believe. Somehow, if you get to heaven, all those negative human characteristics are gone.

So you believe that everyone going to heaven has been brainwashed into obeying the supreme leader? What happened to free will? Is heaven N.Korea?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 07:06

You're viewing that as though when you get you heaven you are still you, and they are still them, with all your feelings and prejudices carried over.
As far as I'm aware, that's not what Christians believe. Somehow, if you get to heaven, all those negative human characteristics are gone.

I think that really depends on which Christians you ask. If you are not you when you get to heaven then who are you? And what was the point in your servitude on earth if it all doesn't really matter anyway?

If you had two children and one of them hit his girlfriend, and the other one shot a prisoner of war - which would you love the most? Would you still love either of them?

Except I don't threaten my children with eternal damnation if they do bad stuff.

Christians believe God would love both the same, as most parents would love their kids both the same.

So, what's the point in having laws and rules and a concept of sin?

Life's complicated

Yep

and it seems death / afterlife might turn out more so!

Only if you believe (without any evidence whatsoever) that you will have an afterlife. I'd much prefer to enjoy the life I know that I have than waste it away trying to please an imaginary deity who may or may not agree with what I've done regardless of which religions I may or may not follow.

missfattyfatty · 23/06/2018 07:56

As to the Qurans case for God, I think if my first point was too subtle for you to appreciate then the other points are going to go over your head. Not just because your an atheist either, some theists need whizz, bang, wallop too. Compared to the drama of a dead man coming back to life the Quran’s case is far more sober and ordinary even to a Christian. But it’s enough for a Muslim believer and Muhammad pbuh did away with the need for a clergy because the Qurans case for God and man’s common purpose established behaviour governed by precise, internalised rules.

mini our understanding of the changes in abrahamic laws is to do with establishing the distinct monotheistic identity. the hebrew Prophets came along heavy with laws, heavy with oversight. Then each prophet removed the amount of overt supervision that community of believers needed: Jesus by removing some of the heavy laws and Muhammad pbuh by removing the overt supervision of a priest class.

As to just enjoying the life you have without need of an afterlife. Sure you can follow a YOLO philosophy and everyone else can too, but then who would bother with those humans that cant have a quality of life without help from others? Those who can’t mutually cooperate or reciprocate even if they wanted to? The weak, the disabled, the elderly? All religions teach altruism as a moral philosophy, as an atheist in a post Christian society as the UK those values still imbue social and political conditioning - just about. Otherwise it’s just as easy to go to some survival of the fittest dystopia (or utopia depending on your political views.) even communist societies : atheistic purportedly more socially minded societies- still have a utilitarian philosophy on people.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 23/06/2018 08:40

As to the Qurans case for God, I think if my first point was too subtle for you to appreciate then the other points are going to go over your head.

That's a little arrogant. I don't need whizz, bang, wallop. But you seem to have given up on the argument that the age of the book is somehow proof of God's existence.

Compared to the drama of a dead man coming back to life the Quran’s case is far more sober and ordinary even to a Christian.

There's nothing wrong with sober and ordinary, but text cannot prove the existence of a god.

As to just enjoying the life you have without need of an afterlife. Sure you can follow a YOLO philosophy and everyone else can too, but then who would bother with those humans that cant have a quality of life without help from others?

Wow. Just wow. You really believe that? What about all the non-theist carers, social workers, charities? You cannot possibly believe that without religion there would be altruism.

All religions teach altruism as a moral philosophy

Perhaps, but they also teach things like homosexuality is a sin.

Otherwise it’s just as easy to go to some survival of the fittest dystopia.

I'm actually astounded at the ignorance being displayed here. I honestly don't know what to say about this.

missfattyfatty · 23/06/2018 09:56

I never talked about age of the text as being evidence, if for that reason then the Torah is way older! I said that its textual integrity has not changed for all of 1440 years- you put lord of the rings as an unchanged text and I said let it remain unchanged for that long to compare it to the Quran. I also brought up the bible as an example of a book that already had multiple competing versions within 200 years of the death of Jesus. Lord of the Rings is what, 60 years old.

As to altruism. I first came onto this thread with an example likening religions to trade unions.

Like atheists don’t see the point of religion nowadays- modern Millennials now don’t see the point of trade union membership as lots of workers rights are enshrined in law. However, a lot has to be appreciated for their historically setting the scene in the West for these rights to be seen as automatic and intrinsic. People now parrot them without realising the history of how those ideas became widespread. And Countries without active trade union organisations have low wages and minimal workers rights.

So: the social worker or carer coming from a humanist background, not theistic. Humanism is itself an offshoot from Christianity but without God. Open, inclusive, tolerant, and all that jazz. But see it’s caring, pastoral, not seeing humans as only the product of what usefulness they bring. thats from the Christian heritage of UK. That’s how Christianity spread through Europe, you had all these monks taking in the lame, the blind, lepers, disabled newborns left to die outside the village walls. that the pagan Europeans at the time surmised would take up too much resources to care for. But the acts of the early Christians did far more to spread Christianity than any pronouncements from Rome because, attached to those disabled/elderly etc were healthy relatives who loved them. And then people who loved those people.

Islam grew in the same way outside of the Arab world, through remote barren places: the desert, the steppes, the savannah. The Islamic idea of brotherhood, hospitality, warmth brought people together in lonely places where shared rituals helped bridge the anonymity of people they didn’t know.

missfattyfatty · 23/06/2018 10:05

As to survival of the fittest dystopia: what’s so ignorant about that? That’s Where we are heading to with free market capitalism after all. Or was my ignorance in calling it dystopia?

headinhands · 23/06/2018 10:28

As for withstanding consumer pressures, not for ideological reasons but the result ends up to consuming less. One big no no is getting into interest based debt for acquiring anything, if you don’t have the money at the time to by it you go without.

Can you give examples of a decision you've made that you would have been unable to make were you not a Muslim?

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 12:45

I think that really depends on which Christians you ask. If you are not you when you get to heaven then who are you? And what was the point in your servitude on earth if it all doesn't really matter anyway?

Because people still have to live life here on earth and ideally do so in a way that's happy - but not at the expense of others. The Christian faith isn't all about doing good on earth in order to get a seat at the top table in heaven, it's supposed to be about letting God guide you and improve your quality of life on Earth too. Bad things still happen to Christians but in theory, God's supposed to be a comfort in those times too. That's the theory - but there's plenty of lapsed Christians too who might argue otherwise.

As for God threatening his own children (us), I struggle with that too. The whole concept of a God doesn't stack up to me. He built an entire universe and populated a planet. He made people in his own image, then 'tested' them and they failed. He then almost wiped out all of population before it grew again. Then he sent his only son to offer forgiveness for their sins and a 'way back' to God... but still with the carrot and stick - heaven or hell...

It's more like a scene from Saw.
Are we God's plaything? it kinda sounds like it.

Strangely though, I have less difficulty in believing that some 'other power' created the Universe, but that's as plausible a reason as believing that matter came from nowhere. The questions we asked at 4 years old remain with us until our dying day... 'well who made God?' vs 'Well how did something come from nothing?' - there's no answer to either.

As for the longevity of the Koran (and Bible) - yeah impressive in a way, but more indicative of mankind's need to hold on to a belief. Both have been preserved from that needs (imo). Both are claimed to be immutable, with the Bible having been translated countless times, with some rewording - but not all that much.
Both books still suffer from translation and interpretation issues particularly on controversial subjects, where suddenly a very specific word is given the full etymology autopsy, and married with 'historical context' in order to argue that something doesn't really mean what you think it does. Y'don't say.

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 13:56

'well who made God?' vs 'Well how did something come from nothing?' - there's no answer to either. I agree but what if there were no such thing as time or no such thing as a beginning or an end. Shock

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 16:19

Time is curved...

how else is it going to fit around my wrist?

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 16:33
Grin
TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 16:47

I watched the video that someone put up earlier about the astro-physicist's (or whatever he was) lecture.

His premise that God's entire plan was about redemption didn't make sense to me. He created a universe in order to for his own creation (us) to be 'redeemed'? hmm.

Gifted speakers can be very persuasive - just like gifted salesmen can be. The will intersperse some facts with a larger number of subjective comments, but present those as facts too. It's a common technique, deliberate or otherwise.

In his eyes, his scientific studies only confirmed his belief that there was a God at the helm of it all (his God, funnily enough). At no point did he say 'I've come to the conclusion there's a greater power, a God, behind it all, but I've no way of knowing if I'm worshipping the right one!'

For me, he stretched credibility a little too far, but that's just me, an open-minded cynic, if there can be such a thing.

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 16:50

an open-minded cynic, if there can be such a thing. Well I'm one too, so that makes two of us. Smile

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 16:52

I don't believe you. What evidence do you have to prove it? ;-)

Vitalogy · 23/06/2018 16:59

oow, what you like ;-)

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 16:59

I don't know if I like the thought of just being a biological 'thing'.
There are some things in life I just cannot explain. I've loved, I've grieved, I've felt shame, and pride...

What are those feelings about? What's inside me that could cause emotions to be stirred, when I'm not in a fight or flight survival situation, when I'm still alive and loved ones aren't, when 100 women could smile at me, but only one matter?

I don't think I want to be stirred biological processes, I want to believe in emotional chemistry. Something romantic, something ethereal.

TornFromTheInside · 23/06/2018 17:00
  • stirred by
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