I really feel for him and am so sad for him.

[krazykoolkazza]

I'm talking here about a guy I work with. He has been a JW (Jehovah's Witness) for 10 years (I've worked wtih him for 8 of those) and seems to be drowning. He is a lovely funny, kind, sensitive, interesting, intelligent, genuine single guy in his late 40s and after having many long chats with him over the time I've worked with him I'm absolutely convinced his life is a lie.

He has such a laugh with us at work and I know he's not really supposed to as we're "wordly people". Very often though he is withdrawn and deeply troubled. He has often told me that he is close to breaking point with the workload that it put on him by his JW elders. He acts as a bereavement councillor to other members of his congregation and has been given no formal training and finds it a totally draining experience. He is also often pressurised into public speaking which he loathes and almost causes him to have panic attacks. When I've suggested that he speak to his elders about it he says it's out of the question because it would make him appear weak to people who have bigger problems than him.

He spends every lunchtime studying JW material and at the very least 4 evenings a week on his bible work. In addition he knocks doors twice a week - another thing he does not relish doing. He is totally brainwashed by this religion and I know that all the unhappiness in his life stems from it.

He has never revealed to me what event in his life triggered his conversion but I know that he must have been vulnerable at one stage to be ripe for conversion. I know he is worth so more than this and I just wish he was strong enough to break free.

What can be done to wake someone like him from this deep sleep he is in and see that there is a life out there to be enjoyed free from control and opression? It is such a shame because I know, and he no doubt knows, that if he left he would lose the support of the network of "friends" he's built up over the past 10 years. I know the poor guy is in inner turmoil.

you cant.

will post mroe in the morning, am off to bed.

You probably ARE helping him without knowing it. He is having a laugh with you, and that must help. If you try and convince him to leave, he will probably withdraw.

The best you can do I think is to be a willing ear for him. He has to work it out for himself.

Speaking as a JW myself, it's up to him how much effort he puts into his religion, he doesn't have to do all these things if he doesn't want to. If truly needs a break from his reponsibilities, then he needs to speak with the elders about it. They won't look down on him, hopefully will support him and be understanding of his situation. He shouldn't fear what they think, it's not what they think that is important. Everyone has different things to offer and at times need to take a step back to refresh themselves.

If he feels like he is being controlled and oppressed and "brainwashed" then he needs to reassess why he is a JW in the first place. Maybe his heart isn't in it. We don't have such things as "bereavement councillor" either. If we needed advice/help in this area, we can talk to ANYONE in the congregation about it. We have all been taught FROM THE BIBLE about what happens after death and how we can cope, we don't need a specific person to get counselling from.

FWIW I am constantly astounded by the problems people face on MN and am thankful that my life is so simple and uncomplicated, due to the principles I have learned from my religion. I also have friends who are not JW, they are good people just with different beliefs, they view me as an intelligent, normal, fun person who is certainly not brainwashed.

Would it surprise you to learn that everything we discuss at our meetings, the effort we put into preaching and they way we live our lifes is all laid out in the Bible, this information is available to everyone who wants to find out, then how can it be brainwashing?

I don't think it's as simple as my colleague "having a word with his elders" BrownSuga. As a single man with no family and what his elders perceive to be no other commitments he is most certainly expected to do all that he does. Maybe the way in which your congregation works differs from his but he is also most certainly a bereavment councillor who is put upon to a great degree depending on the workload. "Stepping back" is simply not an option for him as I understand it.

I know the JW religion doesn't allow women to take the role of an elder so perhaps as a woman you wouldn't be expected to take too great a part...? They clearly have other roles which they believe women should fulfil. I understand my colleague is being groomed to take an even more responsible role in the not too distant future and I personally don't think he will ever say no to what is asked of him, however great the workload, but perhaps he won't realise what stress he is under until it's just too late and he has a breakdown. He is not cut out for this but the clever, overt pressure that has been exerted on him has made it impossible for him to refuse without losing face. This is my greatest fear for him. From what I have learnt of the religion, if he cracks and decides to leave the faith for the sake of his own mental wellbeing he will be treated as a pyriah and will simply be cut off by those whom he has built friendships with. He knows this too.

He has confided to me that his parents and siblings are all also very worried for him (they are not Witnesses) and they know him a lot better than I do.

BrownSuga, I'm truly happy for you that you feel comfortable with your faith but I have to say from what I've seens and learnt over the last few years it is a faith built on extreme pessimism, negativity, control and complete opression of all individual independent thought and expression. There appears to be no joy in it whatsoever. My own view is why be a JW ehen you could be a Born Again Christian and at least be joyous and able to express yourself? For the avoidance of any doubnt I am neither by the way.

You're right, there is a bible out there and if I ever decide to live my life by the principles expressed in it I will have no compunction in going to find it. What I have learnt is that I would never seek the the version of the bible peddled by the Watchtower and Bibletract society which has been rewritten and edited to suit the purposes of that organisation and its own ends.

There are many "recovering witnesses" out there. I salute their strength and courage in taking what must be the extremely difficult decision to break free and start living their lives. I hope my friend can do the same before it breaks him....

Wilkepedia has this to say about The New World Translation:- "The New World Translation is a formal equivalence translation rather than a paraphrase.[2] To a very great extent, one English word has been selected for each Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic word and effort has been made to adhere to this rendering, context allowing."

Paints a rather different picture.

In 1961 the Witnesses published the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, their preferred edition of the Bible.

They never mention that their version of the Bible, The New World Translation, was translated by a committee that contained no scholars of Biblical Greek or Hebrew.

Yawn.

Why "yawn" Mrs Spoon?

Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that people with contary opinions are not holding on to them just to be annoying.

And at least my opinions are my own.

It is beyond me what you are trying to achieve by this thread and what your motives are exactly.

It's "Yawn" because it's the 'same old, same old' but I suppose that was rude so I do apologise.

However with this I will bow out of the 'conversation'.

I should have thought if you read my initial post Mrs Spoon it would have been patently obvious what I was trying to achieve with this thread - I'm trying to get advice on how to support a colleague who is clearly drowning as a result of the opressive, controlling nature of his "faith".

Unfortunately due to the "set up" of his faith he can't turn to his elders for support or guidance. They will have nothing constructive or helpful to offer him.

I have no motives other than to try to support and help my colleague. Over the years, we have become friends and I do care about him, albeit I am a "wordly" person who both he and I know his elders wouldn't approve of. That doesn't change the fact that we have become good friends who share a lot at work. There is nothing in it for me, I just feel for him as a friend when I see him drained and struggling as I do on a daily basis (well, on the days I go to work at least).

Actually, it doesn't surprise me one little bit that you, as a JW, might suspect I had some sort of motive in all of this. After all, the JW faith is all about actions with an ulterior motive. But please don't be so quick to judge others by your own standards. I suppose I am maybe being a little harsh in blaming you though, I've come to learn that JWs are always incredibly defensive and wary of others, who could potentially open their minds. So I guess I shouldn't shoot the messenger. It's not really your fault.

I knew very little of the JW faith before I started working with my colleague but since speaking to him at length and reading a lot about it myself I have come to see and understand the faith for exactly what it is. A perverse form of mind control that has the potential to wreck peoples lives and make them feel incredibly bad about themselves.

I hope my friend has the courage and strength to brak free sooner rather than later both for his sake and the sake of his friends and relatives who are very genuinely concerned about his current mental health.

So, bow out if you want Mrs Spoon, it worries me not. On reflection, I guess it was naive in the extreme to imagine a JW might have something constructive to offer here.

Are you and your friend in the UK? I'm from NZ, and while there found on the whole, my experience unjoyful as they were more into mans law than the Gods. Here in the UK it's opened my eyes to how joyful our religion is, we are always having a good laugh and really enjoy life to the full, while still adhering to bible principles.

As for "our" bible and everyone elses, pick up the New Translation and any other and the main difference you will notice is "ours" uses God's name, whereas many/most others don't. I've seen the tetragrammaton (sp?) written above pulpits in cathedrals so I'm not sure why other religions refuse to acknowledge it in "their" bibles.

As women in the congregation while we do not take the lead in teaching, we are called in the bible the "large army of women", out in the preaching work, as many men work, their wives are able to do more. We all play a role, no-one feels it's sexist.

I can only encourage again that your friend speak to the elders, it doesn't matter if they don't think he has any other responsibilities and therefore has the time to do it, if his emotional state is such that he can't he really should force this position, there is no point in him feeling unhappy and stressed out.

FWIW, I wish I could help him too.

MrsSpoon are you a JW, where are you?

Since considering this further I've just fiished reading a fantistic book called "Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness - Escape from the Watchtower Society" by Diane Wilson. It is a fascinating and compelling account written by an ex JW detailing her experiences of being a Witeness over a 25 year period. It gives a fantastic insight into the workings of this cult and explains how she finally found the strength and courage to break free from it.

I'd so love to recommend my friend to read it but wonder whether now is the right time and how receptive to it he would be to the idea. He's probably nowhere near strong enough. After reading this book I can imagine how fearful he'd be and how it could jeopardise our friendship.

I now know that the Organisation brainwashes adherants to focus solely on what will happen to them after this so called that they don't allow them to live their lives.

It's ironic as I know he's been programmed to think he's obliged to try to "save" the likes of wordly people like me but I can't get away from the feeling that I'm obliged to attempt to save him from this cult and allow him the opportunity to start to live what he's got left of his life. After all, it's the only one he's going to get.

It is sad for him that his religion is a burden to him, rather than a blessing. Some people thrive in a strictly conforming group like the Witnesses, others struggle.

The workload they seem to have is quite enormous - meetings throughout the week, plus witnessing and keeping up with the publications. I can imagine it being very stressful for a couple with children. He sounds as though he is bowed down with the weight of it.

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the Witnesses beliefs, (and making no comment about using wikipedia as a recommendation for anything ), if this is his belief, then there is little in the way of direct opposition that would help him. You would likely just shut down the friendship.

My advice would be to urge him to be honest with his elders. If he hasn't told them how he feels unhappy with the workload, and feels he isn't coping, then they're not neccessarily going to know - people deal with these things very differently. Elders aren't mind readers, they just have a certain authority in a congregation to make decisions. So he really does need to make time to explain how he is struggling.

It would become a different issue if they refuse to listen to him, which I hope wouldn't happen.

krazykoolkazza: you are making the fundamental mistake of thinking you know loads more about the JW faith than you actually do. Plus relying on Wikipedia and an account by one ex member as a detailed and reliable overview is just silly.

If he was 'totally brainwashed' as you suggest, would he really be 'having a laugh with us at work'? also you say "it was naive of me to imagine a JW would have anything constructive to offer here". Not biased or making generalisation then?

And when you say "I'm obliged to attempt to save him from this cult" - well ironically you sound as if YOU are the brainwashed one here.

Actually donnie, if you read this thread properly you'll see that it was Mrs Spoon (a JW I believe?) who used Wikipaedia as a source of reference - not me.

My friend does have a laugh at work, yes, but who knows the guilt he feels afterwards for having done it?

I've read widely about JWs both pro Witness stuff and stuff on the plethora of sites set up by ex Witness of which there are thousands. You see, I have the benefit of being able to take an objective stance and read stuff put out by both sides - unlike Witnesses who are force fed a constant diet of the Watchtower Organisation's material to ensure compliance with its crackpot doctrines.

I am fortunate that I have never been vulnerable enough to fall prey to a cult and that I remain a free thinking individual and an automomous being, free to make my own choices, arrive at my own decisions and opinions and exercise my own judgement and discretion unencumbered by the views of others - unless of course I should consciously CHOOSE to listen to them.

Sadly I cannot say the same for my friend who is exhausted and emotionally drained and lives a life based on fear and guilt and is totally manipulated by the Watchtower organisation. I want more than anything for him to be able to really live and enjoy the life he has. This is a man who loves cycling and tennis but tells me that he no longer has any time to partake of them because he is kept so busy by the demands of his "religion".

So donnie, why don't you go and enlighten yourself and read the book. You just might do yourself a big favour...

Hi Suebaroo, thanks for your comments. My understanding is from talking this through with my friend that he feels guilty for thinking as he does. He feels guilty for complaining when there are others who do far more than him in the congregation already. He isn't married and doesn't have children so feels that he should really be doing more, not less but already he's drowning.

I get the impression from him that there is no likelihood that he will tell his elders. The brainwashing has made him feel like this and this is just the way the Organisatin intended it to be.

The Organisation uses guilt as a central tool to manipulate adherants. He probably knows that if he did admit the way he feels to his eleders they'd be overtly concerned for him but would play the guilt card and I'm sure their final threat would be that "if you feel you can't do this for Jehovah then that's up to you" which would make him feel terribly guity. My friend knows this is how it would be and this is why he doesn't approach them with his concerns.

More than anything I just wish he could find the courage and strength to break away from it all. It's so unhealthy and is sucking the very life out of him.

It's certainly unhealthy for him to be so incredibly stressed about it. I have a JW friend who is suffering from a major depression and she did feel guilty for not keeping up with the magazines, and getting to meetings and out on the ministry.

However, she did speak to others in the congregation about it and she really is tremendously supported now.

I don't personally agree with Witness doctrine, but one thing they do very well is community (as you mentioned, this is one reason why he would be reluctant to leave). I understand his fears, but at the moment, he is just speculating about how they're going to react. If he's never spoken to them about it, he's speculating.

I completely agree that if they do react in the manner you suggest, then it becomes a whole different ball of wax.

Re: your suggestion about him just becoming a Born-Again Christian type - it's really not that simple, the belief system is very different.

I'm not a Jehovah's Witness but I've been studying the Bible with them for a while now and this thread troubles me.

I feel so sad for your friend, he must be feeling so very depressed and I'm glad he has a good friend like you to look out for him (I wish I had a friend like that LOL!).

I'm also sad that you feel the way you do about this religion. Throughout the JW teachings (from the Bible itself), the main belief is to love God with your whole heart, body and mind. Attached to this is the command to love your fellow man, every man no matter what faith, as taught by Jesus to his disciples (it's in the Bible, it does not in any way say you can't laugh and have friends who are not JW or that you should feel guilty if you do). He should be allowed to approach his Elders and talk to them and tell them how unhappy he is and help should be forthcoming. Has he tried to do this, or is his depression making him feel he can't?

I went to the JW memorial of Jesus's death this year, and in that hall were lots of JW's. Some of them who attended hadn't been to meetings or knocked on doors for a long while. They were still JW's, still welcome in the hall, weren't shunned because they weren't doing the religion full time. As I said at the start, I have been studying the Bible with them (various different JW's) for years. Yet I have not in any way been rushed, pushed or made to feel like I HAVE GOT to become a JW or else the world will fall on my head . My experience of them (various different people from various different regions) has been that they are patient, gentle and have big hearts, but that's just my experience.

I hope your friend can maybe pluck up the courage to speak to someone, anyone who may be able to talk to the Elders on his behalf if he feels like he really can't do it, and that he can get some help and can maybe cool the responsibility for a little while.

xx

Hi Scabbybaboon thanks for your comments they are really interesting, particularly as I can balance them against all the stuff I've read written by ex Witnesses. It's so interesting that I can put them into some sort of context too and they completely bear out absolutely everthing I've ever read.

With the Witnesses you're almost definitely for them for against them. All the while that you're not doing anything overtly anti the Organsiation you will continue to "feel the love" so to speak. Even if they are forced to dissfellowship one of their members (only the can do this) they will always welcome you back into the fold.

However, taking the conscious decision to dissassocaite yourself from the Organisation (something only a Witness can do)is something quite different though. There are counteless harrowing stories of how Witnesses are forced to shun and cur all contact with friends who they have in some cases known for years because they no longer recognise "the Truth". Even worse are the stories of people who are forced to shun their own fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and own children because they have voluntarily left the faith. There is certainly no Christian love or humility in that. For the Witnesses God (Jehovah is a judging God not a benevolent God.

Whilst I can completely respect and understand that you enjoy studying the bible with the Witnesses, I personally can't acknowledge any religion, and am in fact deeply suspicious and sceptical of any religion, which operates through an "Organisation" which sets itself up as "God's representative on earth" and doesn't allow its adherents to have a personal relationship with god. I personally can't see too much difference between Scientologists and JWs.

I'm not trying to steer you off course but I would urge you to read Diane wilson's book "Awakening of a Jehovah's Witness - Escape from the Watchtower Society" which is all about her expereinces with the JWs over 25 years. it really is a very compelling book. It might give you some balance if you're actively considering becoming baptised as a JW at some point in the future. There are loads of direct references in it to Witness doctrines (not only by reference to the New World Translation but the Watchtower and Awake publications too). It may give you some interesting points to raise at your bible study groups with the JWs.

Thanks very much for your valuable input to this discussion.

Hey krazykoolkazza . I'm pleased my response made sense (I generally find I talk a load of garbage most of the time lol).

I've actually done a fair bit of research into religion myself if I'm honest. I've been to various churches, read books and websites etc etc over a looooong period (too long). I'm a spiritual person, I believe in God and wanted to take out the time to do what I, personally, thought was the right thing. Religion is an individual choice and, if you find one that interests you, you should delve into it to the roots to see if it "fits" you.

From what I've read, each and every religion has it's casualties, some more some less and that is so sad for the people who were hurt or betrayed.

However, throughout the years, for me personally, this (JW) religion is the one that has been the most true. I have found that everything they teach is in the scriptures (are the various Bibles really that different?). The fact that they believe the Bible is Gods word (inspired of God) is the reason they stick so firmly to what it teaches. I do hope one day to have the courage to be baptized into this religion, because I personally believe it to be true. I just have to leap over a few "obstacles" first lol.

"who knows the guilt he feels afterwards?" - you have answered your own question - NOT YOU!!! you seem to regard yourself as a mindreader. How funny!

I'm glad you're happy with your religion Scabbybaboon. It sounds to me that they've done their work where you're concerned . I'd definitely still advise reading Diane Wilson's book before getting baptised though.

And donnie, brainwashed dear, me dear, no dear. Why so defensive....?

Sorry krazykoolkazza, but they haven't "done their work", I have done mine!

I'm afraid that last comment got my back up a little. I'm a person with a mind of my own and I'm quite capable of discerning what I believe to be true. I am a strong woman and I'm not too happy about the fact you imply I've been brainwashed in some way!

I don't want to be nasty, but have you not to a certain degree been brainwashed by what you have read about the JW faith? You talk about accounts from ex-witnesses which is all well and good, but what have you read on the plus side? In some ways, it sounds like you have devoured with relish accounts of disgruntled people who didn't like following the principles in the Bible (everthing the JW's say can be backed up with scripture, e-mail me questions and I will show you), yet you say nothing of the many stories from people who love this faith and are strengthened by it. Or would it be that the only people telling the truth are the ones who have left, because the others are still "under the influence" LOL!

Each to their own, we all have the free will to choose which way we go (read the information available, think about it, decide if it is right for you as an intelligent thinking person, off you go). Please don't say that because some people decide to follow this particular path that they have been manipulated .

I really hope you're friend gets the help he needs, keep being there for him xx

Hi again Scabbybaboon sorry if I offended you but the very fact that I have tells me that the JWs have most certainly "done their work" with you.

Don't forget the whole point of this thread is that I have been sitting next to a JW at work for the last 8 years so I can assure you that I've heard all about the world from the JWs perspective ad infinitum. I went to do my reading from the other perspecive to give myself some balance and inform myself. I have reached my own decision based on what I've seen, heard and read for myself.

Just as I acknowledge and respect your right to believe that you have discovered "the truth" I think you should respect my right to believe that your religon is not "the truth" and that you are periously close to baptising yourself into a cult, even though it might not feel like one to you at this point in time.

I will continue to be there for my friend but I feel I am fighting an uphill battle - one person against the combined might of the Watchtower and Bibletract Society seems a fairly mismatched contest to me. But I will do what I can to support him as a friend.

Perhaps it might be best for us to agree to differ on this one and for us both to bow out gracefully. I don't think either of us is likely to revise our respective opinions.

Once again, I don't want to offend you intentionally but, like you, I have my own very strong views and convictions too. Hope you understand.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

Thanks for your apology krazykoolkazza . Although I would like it if you didn't think of me as a sheep rofl.

I was offended by the fact that you thought I would be easy to brainwash really, not by the comments you made about the religion itself. So really I haven't proved anything regarding the JW religion merely the fact I'm sensitive to critisism lol!

I agree we should agree to disagree. I completely respect your viewpoint and was in no way trying to bring down your own belief system, merely having an interesting debate (I enjoyed it ). It will all come out in the wash, as my granny used to say .

You sound like a loyal person to have around and I really do hope all goes well with everything. Take care xx