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Original poster

identity politics at church

41 replies

Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 19:37

Hi All,
This is my first time posting in this forum and wondered what people's opinions were on this.

I went to a progressive Christian church for the first time this morning. I was interested in going because they are trying to take a modern view of the Bible, like times have changed, for example, a woman can be a minister or gay people can be married, etc. I was really enjoying the sermon which was about how we should view Jesus as more than just a sacrificial lamb but after the sermon they had sort of an open prayer forum.

That's when the politics came out. It got political. Basically praying against Donald Trump and praying for illegal immigrants. Now, I don't like Donald Trump and this church where I was going was not American, none of these people could have voted in America. I just felt like the service was ruined, that if you disagreed with illegal immigration (which I do, because I myself have moved countries twice and done it legally and also my grandparents were WW2 refugees so I know the difference between someone, say, fleeing death from a place like Syria and someone being a chancer and flouting the law).

I am digressing here.
I guess what I am getting at is I don't think it is acceptable to bring identity politics (whether you are left or right leaning) into a prayer service. I would not have asked people to pray for a conservative cause because I don't think it would have been appropriate and some people might be offended if they vote otherwise. It would be like going to church and having someone stand up and say the were praying for Remain or for Brexit, either way it is divisive!! It doesn't matter what you think personally, someone is going to feel excluded. I thought it was wrong.
What does everyone think of this?

OP posts:
EnthusiasticEdna · 27/08/2017 19:51

Hi there. I don't agree with praying against Trump as that seems arrogant in front of God (much as I dislike his behaviour and policies). The Bible says we should pray for our leaders (not against them) but like it or not the Bible has a lot to say about how 'aliens' should be treated, (for example not preventing them from working!) And unlike homosexuality (which is barely mentioned except in the context of specific rituals associated with paganism and idolatry) it is clear and unequivocal. Land belongs to God. There are no borders or birthrights. Restricting immigration has no justification within Christianity so it makes sense. I agree unlimited immigration might make our lives worse and the immigrants better, but it is consistent with the Bible and we're all equal in God's eyes.

Paddington68 · 27/08/2017 19:58

Jesus was rather political.

NotMeNoNo · 27/08/2017 20:03

It depends how it came across but I can see how both the subject of Trump and his ambiguous actions and the danger and plight of illegal immigrants might feature. However Christians come in all political persuasions and don't always think about how they lead prayers. I'm sure God sometimes has the Hmm (hmm) face.

Movablefeast · 27/08/2017 20:06

I agree that our faith shoukd bring us together and show us that we are all children of God and we have more in common than otherwise. Not that people of faith shouldn't be politically active but outside the context of ritual that focusses on something deeper than ultimately unites us. Political parties should not be promoted or disparaged in church there are plenty of other contexts for those discussions.

Church members have a history of leading the cause of civil rights but also white supremacists and racists can claim to be Christian. Swings both ways.

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 20:09

OK, so Christians don't believe in borders as we're all equal in the eyes of God (I agree with that) however we don't all share the same politics. But being realistic we can't just open the entire world's borders (I don't want this to turn into an immigration discussion!!)

I don't really know how to express myself properly here. Maybe church isn't for me if I think politics needs to take a back seat to spirituality otherwise you just have another religion that thinks it knows it all and thinks it superior, maybe?

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allegretto · 27/08/2017 20:09

Jesus was rather political This. I think you are being naive in thinking religion is not political! Even the Pope has spoken out against Trump.

allegretto · 27/08/2017 20:11

so Christians don't believe in borders Where did you get this from? That is a huge leap...

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 20:16

allegreto I got the Christians don't believe in borders from Enthusiastic. So Christians do believe in borders? I am not being facetious here.

Also I do not support Trump. I do not support identity politics either.

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allegretto · 27/08/2017 20:19

Christians are a huge category. I'm not sure why you expect them to have one opinion on something??? Also not sure what you mean by identity politics.

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 20:28

I know there are many Christian branches. I just was surprised to hear Trump mentioned. Like I can't even go to enrich my spirituality without hearing horrible political stuff. Is there no respite from this toxic political stuff even in the house of God? Like there isn't more local stuff to pray for or have concern for?

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Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 20:30

Identity politics divide us all into categories so we don't see what we have in common and how to work together. I thought in church it would be more about working together.

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allegretto · 27/08/2017 20:33

"Horrible political stuff" is very much the domain of christianity. Are you a christian? What are you looking for in a church?

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 20:35

Sorry everyone -- I am probably not making much sense!

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HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/08/2017 20:35

How exactly did they pray for illegal immigrants?

HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/08/2017 20:38

I think yo're problem might be that what you say your looking for in a church (applying the Bible to modern life) seems to be at odds with with what you are actually wanting.

The church isn't just some place you go on Sunday. It's about applying that to all aspects of your life. Unfortunately you can't just shut off bits and draw a line around 'politics.'

tribpot · 27/08/2017 20:46

Perhaps the prayer was this?

We pray that those who seek to make a home in this country may find us welcoming and willing to help them find a path toward citizenship, We pray that our legislators, as they craft new immigration legislation may find the wisdom and courage to enact new policies that do justice for our country and for those who would immigrate here. We pray for those who fan the flames of fear and discrimination against the undocumented may be touched with your divine compassion

PencilsInSpace · 27/08/2017 20:46

There are plenty of illegal immigrants in this country who have fled death and torture.

There are also plenty who have become illegal when their British partners dumped or abused them, frequently leaving them with several children.

There are those who become illegal because sickness or disability prevents them from either working and raising the extortionate funds for a visa extension, or for returning home.

There are plenty of people who become illegal because of stupid administrative errors that take months and years to sort out.

There are those who have lived in the UK since early childhood who never learnt they were illegal until it came time to apply for college or get a job.

Once someone has no legal status they are not allowed to work, rent a home, have a bank account or drive a car. If they earn any money it can be seized as the proceeds of crime. Of course like other people subject to immigration control they also can't claim any benefits or have free NHS treatment (with a few exceptions).

If you want to see true poverty in the UK today, have a look at how illegal immigrants are living, especially those left with (often British) children.

Who do you think you should be praying for?

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 21:16

OK - I already said I did not want this to turn into a debate about immigration!! I married an immigrant, my grandparents were immigrants.. That's not the point.

The person who brought up the Trump thing was a not the minister. It was a parishioner. And they were mentioning him pardoning the elderly sheriff who only tried to do his job (look it up if you want, that's not what this was about).

I think I went to church hoping to have a break from things, hoping to feel better, hoping to feel welcome, not to have to hear people grousing about Trump!! I have enough shit in my life to worry about without also thinking about US political Trump shit. So if that is the way church is going, no thank you. I have enough to worry about i my own life without praying for stuff related to Trump.

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Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 21:23

But what if you have had enough of politics. What if you have enough going on in your own personal life that the world's politics is something you don't even want to know about because it's just adding your burden? Do people not understand that? Cannot church be a place of peace?

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Nofilter · 27/08/2017 21:28

It sounds like your seeking sanctuary at this point in your life... perhaps there is a lesson for spiritual growth here - accepting of others views that do not relate to your own. I always find lessons in things that rile me....

Hugs OP ;-)

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 21:29

I should say, the parishioner was disagreeing with him pardoning the elderly sheriff who Obama had done something to I don't know what (which did not sound very Christian to me, to disagree with a pardon of an old man). Just to clarify. It was complaining about Trump pardoning an elderly guy? I don't even know how it had to do with anything except someone obsessed with what Trump does?

I just don't want to hear about it!!

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allegretto · 27/08/2017 21:31

I think you need a meditation retreat not a church.

Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 21:32

I don't know. There was people in there asking for prayers for their family members that had cancer and what not. Then this person pipes up about Trump.

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Original poster
Picklemuncher · 27/08/2017 21:33

Alegretto So if you have real problems in your life, you shouldn't go to church because other people are just going to bring down with stuff like American politics?

OP posts:
HarveySchlumpfenburger · 27/08/2017 21:34

Only tried to do his job Shock

Would you have had the same issue if it had have been a minister that has led the prayer and not a parishioner in open prayer.

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