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Philosophy/religion

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landmark forum?

18 replies

shrub · 17/07/2004 15:32

i know a couple of people who have been on these courses. from listening to their experiences and the language they now use it sounds rather like a cult. am i right to be suspicious?

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noddy5 · 17/07/2004 15:36

Yes.I got in touch with an old friend over Christmas and she had done this.It cost a fair bit and her life was still the same old chaos it had always been!She tried to entice me but it really seemed like paying someone else to tell you what you already know

Tissy · 17/07/2004 15:40

hmm...

had a look at their website and it looks like a load of old tripe!

Blu · 17/07/2004 15:45

Friends of DP have become involved....encouraging others to take expensive courses, taking their children to childrens courses - (and some very dubious stuff, IMO, about how they relate to school frinds) insisting on 'outing' very old truths which make them feel better but cause emotional havoc for others....be suspicious, be very suspicious....

shrub · 17/07/2004 15:58

yes - both of being saying that it would be so good if i went with them to the next course/workshop. i don't feel as if i need to go. both of these friends were fragile to begin with and they are still just as highly strung/needy/intense/selfish as before, they just seem to have changed their vocabulary. i had one phone me up for an hour after a year of not seeing her (not much in common, drifted apart) and she wanted to go over why hadn't i contacted her and trying to remember what i had said to her from our last conversation because she wanted to work through 'issues' she kept talking about being 'stuck' and 'creating' and other words that seem to belong to the forum. i believe you can't right the wrongs in your past you just have to let go/move forwards. i think they are taught to rewrite their history? i don't want to offend anyone on mn that has been to the forum. i just want to understand why it is so secretive?

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Blu · 17/07/2004 16:09

I don't think it is a 'cult' as such - there have been waves of these 'psychological personal development' initiatives, EST,The Mastery, to name but a couple. I instinctively object to them because they usually focus on one emotion as a way of harnessing power over others, being assertive, getting what YOU want, with little care for the wider collective good - except to spread the message that everyone else should speak the same emotional language.

I have years of experience of running drama workshops, and it is actually very easy to get people to a state of emotional catharticism, and to wind them up to make all sorts of emotional outbursts etc - (and I avoid doing it) - the reason they need a circle of freinds all using the same language from the course is so that they can continue to mutually hype themselves up!

SueW · 18/07/2004 00:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

shrub · 18/07/2004 00:52

suew - is this a book?
blu - tell us more about these drama workshops, sounds very intriguing!

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Earlybird · 18/07/2004 02:41

I did the Landmark Forum in New York about 12 years ago, so bear in mind everything that follows below may have changed in the subsequent years.

The introductory course runs over a weekend, and a weeknight (suppose it hasn't changed). There were about 100 people in my group. It is very intensive with 15 hour days. Alot of what they say makes good sense, and seemed to me to be a clever synthesis of principles from buddhism, judaism, christianity, psychoanalysis and savvy self help books. It is not religious in any way.

Some concepts are put forth in a quite obscure way that often seemed unecessarily complicated, but perhaps that is in order to make it sound new/fresh. They use some words and catch phrases in unusual ways which sounds like "forum-speak" and probably causes wariness when heard by "outsiders" who don't know the context.

As soon as the first weekend is over, you are encouraged (some would say pressured) to sign up for the advanced class. When that is done, they want you to do the Leadership class. And after that, there are lots of other classes available on specific subjects. I suppose the subsequent classes are meant to reinforce the concepts through repetition, so they want you to stay active. I stopped after the Leadership class. I had done all I wanted to do, and wanted a break. There was no pressure for me to continue further.

They don't advertise and are extremely wary of sceptics/critics who would level cult accusations - so they want graduates to spread the word to friends/family via word of mouth. Hence, the calls to friends, family etc to "clean up" past problems, and spread the word. (I'm sure being the recipient of one of those calls can be quite alarming when it comes out of the blue.) Beyond the introduction class, there is less expectation that you will "recruit" others. I paid for the classes I took, but was never asked to purchase anything else, and was never asked to contribute financially beyond the cost of the classes.

I don't think there is anything sinister about it, and wouldn't call it a cult. Somewhere in the very distant past, there was a tenuous link (via a previous organisation) to Est. People get worked up about the fact that you're asked not to wear a watch during the introductory classes. As there are scheduled breaks at regular intervals, you're also asked not to leave the main room to go to the bathroom while teaching is in session (they think your body could be distracting you from an uncomfortable/meaningful pyschological breakthrough). But, there's nothing sinister to it. I think those objections come from people who don't really want to do the course.

I found it to be interesting, thought-provoking, and valuable to a point. But I do question it's long term effectiveness unless you keep repeating/reinforcing the principles. Even now, 12 years later I'm having trouble recalling specifics so that I can write coherently about it here.

Blu · 18/07/2004 15:44

Shrub - I love the idea of being intriguing, but can't rise to it, I'm afraid! Running regular drama workshops is part of my job - or has been until recently, anyway. With teachers, young people, professional actors etc etc. One of the strengths of drama is that it evokes emotional, intellectual and imaginative powers all at once. You can set up a very quick and intense communication amongst participants (through games and excercises), and you may well be dealing with quite personal or powerful content. The 'enclosed' atmosphere can also give people a sense of 'anything goes'. So, whilst drama is brilliant for, say, getting young people to go very deep into their attitudes and responses to thei own violence or disaffection, and also giving them a way to 'rehearse' alternative strategies, or explore identity, or create powerful stories based on real memories, it is also easy to lead people into all kinds of 'in the moment' revelations, and to manoevre them into what could almost be group hysteria. At worst, potentially harmful (you never know what you are dealing with with people you have just met, after all), and at best not particularly useful because it is merely cathartic with no long term effect.

IMO and IME there is a fine line between excellent drama facilitation and downright manipulation (a drama leader will usually lead the group to an unexpected outcome - you don't explain it all in advance), and professional drama workers know exactly where that line lies. Ditto the big difference between drama (which may be confronting, emotionally challenging etc) and DramaTherapy - a different kettle of fish, but with many techniques in common. Again, good drama workers will not cross the line!
Sorry - that was probably more than you bargained for!

motherinferior · 18/07/2004 16:12

The Landmark sounds like the course that the mother in Six Feet Under did.

Not that I live my life through telly or anything.

shrub · 18/07/2004 18:06

wow earlybird - very eloquent for someone like me on the outside looking in. i've had 3 people now ask me to go on the next course which left me feeling as if i was giving out some sign that i needed healing - i don't think i do, i now use meditation and study buddhism. does it just focus on the past? now you've put it into context through the word of mouth advertising i will ease up on the paranoia
blu - thanks for your info. went to a drama workshop when i was about 15 with my friend and we got very silly and giggly. would love to have another go. i imagine you have the potential to pull out some pretty strong reactions through this method. i would be apprehensive it would press 'old buttons' and i would rant and forget i was in charaterdo you have people that take it personally? whats all this about 'group hysteria'? can you give some examples? it all sounds really fascinating.

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shrub · 18/07/2004 18:14

motherinferior - where do you get your energy from to stay up till 11? do you have a secret potion? eat special food? i really wanted to see 6 feet under but it was just too late - bb5 is wrecking my life, i'm ususally upstairs by 9.30. i am so knackered and grumpy - all because i need to see whether dan is going to sort out achmed (sp??) - apologies if this makes no sense whatsoever!

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motherinferior · 18/07/2004 18:25

I have three words for you, shrub.

VID EE OH!

Blu · 18/07/2004 19:28

Shrub: Exactly - a good drama leader shouldn't be allowing people to go further than they intend - but just facilitate people to discover creativity that they didn't know they had, and have a good time - or develop a better performance.

The problem is that you don't always know what effect a game will have unbtil you try it. I devised a 3 day workshop around people's sense of identity once. We started with a gentle game of remembering the first song you ever learned as a child from an adult who was caring for you. By the end of the first morning we had people weeping in heaps and disclosing all sorts of distressing material. A (quickly modified) version of the same workshop with another group ended with people facing up to serious racism in themselves....and big emotional group scenes. BUT that's because you asked for examples, most drama activity should be fun and creative and brilliant to be involved with. Where do you live? I could maybe recommend good classes. It's fun, and even non-heavy drama is hugely liberating and empowering in a personal sense, if it's your thing.

Earlybird · 19/07/2004 11:49

Shrub - had to laugh when I saw this advert in the newspaper over the weekend:

"Change Your Life In Just 7 Days:
*Master your own emotions and run your own brain
*Discover your true potential and become the person you really want to be
*Discover what you truly want in life and make your dreams come true
*Use the powerful beliefs of geniuses and highly successful people
*Change your life with the power of positive perspective"

So.....next time your friends try to talk you into doing the Landmark Forum, you can say "No thanks. I think I've found a course that will work better for me. It's the Paul McKenna Training program!!" And let me tell you......it's not a joke! That ad really WAS in the paper!!

Blu · 19/07/2004 12:30

Oh No! Now you've discovered who i am in RL!!

CountessDracula · 19/07/2004 13:11

2 people I know have done this. One just turned a bit odd for a while then seemed to revert.

The other was a good friend - he and his dw absolutely categorically didn't want children. They hated it whenever kids came round and when I got pg I though they were going to cry (weirdos!!)

He went on the course one weekend - I was round with her and he must have called about 10 times asking her bizarre questions. When he got back he told her that they now had to have children and that their previous attitude was selfish.

A month later she was up the duff!

They now have a 1yo boy who is delightful and they adore him.

Papillon · 19/07/2004 13:32

"Change Your Life In Just 7 Days.... in 9 months more like it in their case CD!!

It is like jumping in cold water these courses... can make a person run round barking for awhile with the lightbulb flashing on and off, or if they are lucky just the light bulb goes on and stays on.

motto: Best buy waterproof lightbulbs

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