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Original poster

My dearest creationist friend

45 replies

Alexis1983 · 02/07/2017 23:08

My question is this: should I bother try to convert my best friend from creationism to evolution?

Of course, they're her beliefs, which she is entitled to have - but when the evidence for evolution is so overwhelming that it has to be true.
Evolution is proven through fossils and on a DNA/genetic level, that's enough evidence for me, and most people, they teach it in biology lessons at school these days.
However, for my creationist friend, evolution counters her precious religion, so much so that she tells her ds and dd that evolution is a lie. I worry for her kids, it's not my place, but is it worth trying to explain to someone the evidence for the sake of her children, or merely the proposition futile as talking to an evangelical about science is like talking to a brick wall. What would you do?

OP posts:
AddictedToDrPepper · 02/07/2017 23:57

I would keep your views to yourself tbh. It's not your business to interfere in others beliefs. If you ever have that kind of discussion with your friend then by all means share your knowledge but don't actively seek to convert them otherwise.

7Days · 03/07/2017 00:01

Yeah she is wrong no question. But it sounds like she is grabbing on to a version of faith for dear life. If she doesn't clung she'll drown. Existential crisis type thing.
I wouldn't worry about her kids, assuming they live a normal integrate life in the UK they will form their own views, most likely.

RaspberryBeretHoopla · 03/07/2017 00:05

Don't worry about her children, they can still have independent critical thinking skills and aren't guaranteed to grow up believing in their indoctrination. Sometimes the more ludicrous the indoctrination the easier it is to abandon it as a child grows older.

I wouldn't try to dissuade your friend of her beliefs. They are based in faith and not necessarily rational.

Wonderment · 03/07/2017 03:46

Evolution is proven through fossils and on a DNA/genetic level, that's enough evidence for me, and most people, they teach it in biology lessons at school these day

Creationist scientists say that these decisions are made based on how you work out the mathematics. I think it was on MN that I first heard someone say if the rate of decay is constant, the number crunching comes to millions/billions of years, but if the rate of decay is variable over time, it easily makes everything thousands of years old. I had a quick google at the time and saw both sides of the argument for constant and variable decay rates. The overriding argument was that no one was there to observe it, so everyone is making their best guess.

This being the case, I would leave your friend alone. You wouldn't like it if she decided to try and persuade you of her religious views and so it does seem a bit odd that you would seek to do that to her.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 03/07/2017 07:00

You aren't going to win a creationist v evolution argument because it isn't about science v religion. It is about authority. Biblical literalism is a very recent thing and turns up in America in the 19th century which explains why there are more of them in the USA than in the U.K. It goes like this. The Bible has authority because it is the literal word of God. Because it is the literal word of God all of it, even the tricky bits, has to be accepted because if you doubt one bit then anything can be questioned and faith comes crashing down. This 'believe the whole thing in its entirety or not at all' leads to all the strange pseudo scientific shoring up of creationist beliefs that you find on creationist websites.

Those of us Christians who are not creationist (the majority in the UK) look at the book of Genesis and see a myth that is related to other creation myths in the ancient near east (ANE.) The poets who started telling the story of creation in this way are saying something about the nature of a God who speaks the world into life. It was never intended to be a scientific treatise.

So you aren't going to,win this one. If you like your friend enough as a person to stay friends then one day she might move away from a very conservative faith to,something more mainstream or she may lose faith altogether. Both will be painful and she will need friends who aren't part of that world.

specialsubject · 03/07/2017 09:23

I think the phrase is ' you can't argue with stupid'.

Pity about the kids, but with luck they will be allowed to go to school and learn about critical thinking and to use their evolved brains. If she denies them a full education then it is time to interfere.

Herbpatch · 03/07/2017 09:26

What special said. In your shoes this would be an ex-friendship. You'd have to have the IQ of a table to take the Bible literally.

Herbpatch · 03/07/2017 09:28

Sorry, I meant 'If I were in your shoes, this would be an ex-friendship.' But yes, the children's education is the big question.

ReawakeningAmbition · 03/07/2017 09:29

I don't think you have good "converting" skills and you would benefit from reading the points about authority above with care and learning from them.

The fact that something is taught in schools is, frankly, not a good or a scientific argument.

I appreciate that you may have used shorthand as you felt among friends here in which case, as you were!

Wonderment · 03/07/2017 15:03

You'd have to have the IQ of a table to take the Bible literally.

You see, comments like this really let down Atheists badly.

Ever had an MRI scan? The guy who invented that didn't have the IQ of a table. Most atheists who are derogatory like this haven't even come close to inventing anything meaningful, much less something so life-saving and important as the MRI.

Atheists are intelligent and atheists are thick as a plank. Creationists are intelligent and creationists are thick as a plank. It all depends who you talk to, but what you can't do (without losing credibility) is to tar everyone with the same brush. You let yourself down if you do that.

specialsubject · 03/07/2017 16:55

Interesting fact from the above post, clearly the inventor (can't type his name, keeps being auto corrected) is a skilled doublethinker.

Herbpatch · 03/07/2017 19:28

Are you suggesting that the invention of the MRI was in some way related to this person's inability to recognise a creation myth? That it's admirable to be a scientist who somehow also manages, via some odd mental quirk I feel sure you'll be fully ready to explain,Wonder, to sponsor something which is, by its nature, the antithesis of science? Hmm

AddictedToDrPepper · 03/07/2017 20:02

Herb you do realise that you get religious scientists right? Faith in a god or diety doesn't mean that you can't be an intelligent contributing member of a scientific field. It just means that you have faith in something larger than the world you currently live in.

Niminy · 03/07/2017 20:57

Religion isn't the antithesis of science, it's different from science. It asks different question and has different ways of seeking g answers to them. They're not competing for the same territory.

Herbpatch · 03/07/2017 21:11

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I also know scientists who follow a religious faith, but who are not Biblical literalists. I meant that Young Earth Creationism, of which Raymond Davadian, inventor of the MRI, is a proponent, is the antithesis of science. The evidence from numerous scientific disciplines contradicts the YEC position. It's a pseudoscience. What kind of scientist would believe in something directly contradicted by masses of evidence?

ollieplimsoles · 05/07/2017 19:47

There is no such thing as a 'creationist scientist'

And the young earth aspect of creationism makes no sense at all, at least opt for intelligent design, then at least you can bullshit your way out of things a bit quicker.

ReawakeningAmbition · 05/07/2017 20:45

The job of a scientist isn't to believe though, it's to doubt.

The way you lot talk, Einstein was an anti-scientist. His theories are contradicted by hundreds of years' worth of high quality evidence.

ReawakeningAmbition · 05/07/2017 20:47

Sorry, Some of you lot. Not everyone!

Member652554 · 05/07/2017 21:06

Oh come off it. She is an adult and can believe what she likes. Why are you so bothered by what conversation takes place between her and her kids ? As long as the kids are happy,.healthy and safe , what their mum believes in is none of your business. Its strange how obsessed people are with what goes on in other people's lives and homes .

petitdonkey · 05/07/2017 21:09

thegreenheart - you explain that so eloquently, I will be quoting you in future! Maybe you should write a book.

DioneTheDiabolist · 07/07/2017 15:31

I wouldn't bother OP. Changing the beliefs of another is a lengthy, difficult process with no guarantee of success and runs a high risk of ruining the friendship altogether. I assume your friendship is based on other things which are important to you both. Go forward with those and agree to disagree on Creationism.

Cailleach666 · 07/07/2017 21:33

convert my best friend from creationism to evolution?

OP you talk as if they were different flavours of ice cream.

Evolution is not part of a faith.
Creationism is not a scientific theory.

VforVienetta · 07/07/2017 22:23

I have a creationist friend too, and as an atheist, I realised quite quickly that there were just some topics we should agree not to discuss.
I appreciate her kindness, thoughtfulness, and determination, and we have long talks about family issues. What we do not do is discuss religion, evolution, or LGBT issues. I have as much chance of 'converting' her to atheism that she has of converting me to creationism, and that doesn't bother me at all.

Cailleach666 · 07/07/2017 22:52

VforVienetta for me that's a problem.

Hard core creationists tend to be quite hard core in other aspects of their faith too. So you mentioned LGBGT, many creationists are not very liberal in their views of other areas- seeing homosexuality as a sin or something to be cured, taking a dim view of sex outside marriage, women's rights, feminism, male supremacy etc.

I couldn't be friends with people who have these attitudes.

MaisyPops · 07/07/2017 23:02

Those of us Christians who are not creationist (the majority in the UK) look at the book of Genesis and see a myth that is related to other creation myths in the ancient near east (ANE.) The poets who started telling the story of creation in this way are saying something about the nature of a God who speaks the world into life. It was never intended to be a scientific treatise.
Exactly. I'm religious and believe in the big bang and evolution. I'm not a biblical literalist. I'm comfortable with doubt because nobody knows what there was before the big bang.

If an atheist friend started trying to tell me that I should believe God had no hand in anything then I'd treat them with the same level of confusion and cynicism as I do religious people who tell me God created the world a few thousand years ago in 6 days.

Nobody knows for sure what brought the world into existence. Anyone who wants to preach at me (religious or otherwise) can sod off.