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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Why do people claim witches do not exist?

103 replies

Rockpebblestone · 29/10/2016 09:08

Watching the One Show last night and heard this. It made me wonder why.

Personally I view witchcraft as a sort of 'belief system' related to the practice of rituals in an attempt to influence events. Whether you believe there is any truth in this (belief system), or power behind the rituals, does not relate to the fact that there are people who regard themselves as practising witchcraft and thus are witches.

So why say there is no such thing as witches?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 29/10/2016 20:57

See? You're misinterpreting the piano leg thing. Nothing to do with the shocking nature of legs- that'shall made up.

How do you think you can possibly know what Neolithic people thought?

Trills · 29/10/2016 21:00

That's nice :)

I also like that you've double-barrelled your name there and not just taken your husband's name :o

It seems that humans as a group are not very good at reading the smallprint, so maybe it's easier and safer to go from:
"witches exist they are scary and dangerous and we must burn them"
to
"witches don't exist, no burning required" (safe but not nuanced)
rather than from:
"witches exist they are scary and dangerous and we must burn them"
to
"witches do exist but they aren't the kind of witches you're thinking of and they are harmlessish so let's not burn them" (nuanced but less easy to take in and feel secure in)

wiccamum · 29/10/2016 21:03

Really? Why DID they cover the legs then? I always thought it was a saucy thing...

I still think maypoles are just big ol' willies though 😉

wiccamum · 29/10/2016 21:04

And I'm not an anthropologist...but I know a John Thomas when I see one 😏

hawaii6oh · 29/10/2016 21:07

Are the one show allowed to say that Jesus didn't exist at Christmas? (Genuine question)

MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig · 29/10/2016 21:21

That's kind of my point Trills. Unfortunately not everyone on this planet has evolved from the first point of view. We all take it for granted that we pooh-pooh the very idea of actual witchcraft but for some, it's a belief strong enough to kill over.

I don't mind a witch. Very hard-working women, I've always said.

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2016 21:42

Nope. The covers were just to stop the legs being bashed and scratched by people cleaning the room. You see my point? Smile

Lots of things had covers to protect them. Antimacassars on armchairs to stop people's hair oil coming off onto the upholstery........

BertrandRussell · 29/10/2016 21:43

"Are the one show allowed to say that Jesus didn't exist at Christmas? (Genuine question)"

Well, I certainly hope they have guests on who say that and explain why...................

Undersmile · 29/10/2016 22:49

I thought there was a reasonable amount of evidence for Jesus Christ existing... just a bit short on the whole being the son of a non-existant God part.

Fluffy24 · 30/10/2016 09:02

I didn't mean offence to pharmacists, I think of witches has the historical equivalent. With midwife and nurse rolled in too. I may have read too much Discworld... Grin

Trills · 30/10/2016 09:19

Headology, innit?

Why do something with magic when you can do it with cleverness?

Mindtrope · 30/10/2016 19:44

I am a witch. I really don't care what others think.

headinhands · 30/10/2016 20:59

Witches exist in that there are people who call themselves witches. When people say they don't exist they're just making the distinction that there's nowt supernatural going on.

Justaboy · 30/10/2016 21:27

Mindtrope I've always wanted to meet a witch!, what sort are you or are they all the same?.

Mindtrope · 30/10/2016 22:20

justaboy I can't speak for all witches. I practice alone, although I have been part of a coven in the past. It's up to individuals to define themselves, so I can't answer your question. I appreciate your enthusiasm though.

Woodacorn · 30/10/2016 23:24

A lot of people imagine a cartoon/fairytale type witch when asked that question I should think. Maybe witches need to work on their publicity a bit. Our world is full of different and interesting people. As long as people are kind there is no problem with what they do or believe.

Justaboy · 31/10/2016 00:28

Mindtrope :-)

Mindtrope · 31/10/2016 05:37

Maybe witches need to work on their publicity a bit

Halloween Grin Ha- like national witch day perhaps?

I'm not into publicity. Most people I know in RL don't know this aspect of me. It's not something I broadcast.

SmallBee · 31/10/2016 05:56

When I was asked if witches were really I said no, not because I'm denying the existence of Wiccans etc but because we'd just finished watching Harry Potter and that's the sort of witch they meant, no matter how much I want hogwarts to be real. ( they obviously lost my letter..)

When DD is old enough to ask me that I can see I'll need to amend my answer slightly! I just utterly forgot about the other kind of witch. I'm sorry it's not for a more exciting reason. Especially because I know a couple of Wiccans myself.

ShriekOutWithTheFreakOutCrowd · 31/10/2016 12:01

Actually I ‘believe’ in the Discworld witches because their characters are described in a nuanced way. They are neither completely good, nor completely bad.

I find it harder to ‘believe’ in the witches mentioned in the Bible because they are depicted as being uniformly bad – and that seems unlikely.

I tend to agree with Fluffy in thinking that witches in the past would have been the midwives, nurses, herbalists and counsellors of the day - and not just because of Discworld!

The word Pharmakeia is found in old Greek versions of the Bible and is taken to connote witchcraft but it also means the use of drugs. There would certainly have been a blurring of the distinction between magic and medicine back in those days.

There’s an interesting passage from Acts 19 describing conversions to Christianity.

Also many of those who were now believers came, confessing and divulging their practices. And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.

If this ‘Fahrenheit 451-esque’ destruction of books really happened, and it does seem a plausible scenario, then it was an act of cultural vandalism.

Did everyone whose books were burned really hand them over willingly?

I think that, whatever the contents and apparent change in significance to the owners, the books should have been preserved for posterity so that future generations might know something of the ideas of these so-called practitioners of magic through the writings in their own books.

Rockpebblestone · 31/10/2016 16:12

Shriek, I think it is totally believable that the Christian new believers from Acts would voluntarily burn their own books, if what these books contained conflicted so much with their new beliefs it was now offensive to them. Would anyone want to keep a book in their house that contained offensive content?

Regarding medicine and 'magic' you look at some of the old herbalist materials, they do not necessarily really relate to modern medicine that well. A lot of cures were applied simply because of how the herb looked, if it looked like a part of the body it was seen as a treatment for an ailment of that part. There were also a lot of more esoteric rules regarding the herbs and other remedies used, relating them to astrology for example. Herbs were often used to induce trances in shamanic practises which is also doubtful in terms of scientific/ medicinal value.

So I can understand when some might want to voluntarily leave these sort of practices behind which would render any personally owned related books etc redundant to them.

However this is not the same as seeking to forcibly obliterate all traces of an unwanted belief system in others and I feel denial of an (unwanted) belief system's existence is indicative of this type of sentiment - thus the very existence of witchcraft and witches is denied by some.

OP posts:
Justaboy · 31/10/2016 18:45

By way of a light diversion interesting bit on 't telly re Witches marks might have one where you live;?.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/in-pictures-37824761

ShriekOutWithTheFreakOutCrowd · 01/11/2016 12:18

Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen.
Heinrich Heine

Interesting to see the witches’ marks. To find old books belonging to those who made the marks and get to know a little about their ways would surely have added to the intrigue.

Rock if you go on Youtube you can find quite a number of videos of book burnings. You can watch atheists merrily burning Bibles and Qurans – presumably their own copies and not snatched from the devout - and all because they deem these books offensive. You can hear an evangelical Christian gleefully describing the time his newly converted friends organised a communal burning of once-cherished New Age books. On that occasion, even the musings of poor Eckhart Tolle, who seems a very gentle soul, were declared satanic and went up in smoke!

It all seems rather provocative and impolite to me. Documenting it on Youtube is a sort of modern high tech equivalent of ritual book burning in the town square.

At the same time, these were all mass-produced books. Taking a few copies out of circulation is not going to remove from the planet any trace of the ideas contained in them. It’s still possible to get your own copies of Tolle’s books and decide for yourself whether they are satanic or not.

In contrast, the handwritten books available in the first century were rare and precious items containing material which could all too easily become 'extinct'. Even if the early Christians didn’t agree with some of the ideas contained in them, it would have been better to quietly pass the books on to those who were happy to continue in the old ways or respectfully consign them to the shelves of a library rather than burn them.

As it is, the information contained in those books has been lost. We cannot read them for ourselves. We know less than we might about the history and evolution of beliefs and medicinal practices because of such over-enthusiastic book burning.

(Sorry, I know I've written too much! Shock

IcedVanillaLatte · 01/11/2016 12:41

I have a witch's tit, if anyone cares.

LikeaBatoutofHull · 01/11/2016 14:15

The witch might ... Wink