Organised Religion

[ACubed]

Firstly I am really not trying to knock anyone's faith, or cause offence, this is just something that's been on my mind a lot recently.

Do followers or organised religions believe that theirs is the only correct one, and all the others are wrong? Because if this is so that would mean the majority of the planet are wrong, and of not its basically saying everyone's right in their own way, which doesn't make much sense either.

I just can't get my head around the fact that people might pick a faith based purely on what thier family follow, and then assume that's the one correct one.

Would love to hear thoughts of this.

OK. We all sin, every day. None of us are perfect - we lie, we hurt others (even unintentionally), we are envious, we don't do the good that we should do. None of us are able to come before God on our own efforts, because he abhors sin.

God saves those who believe because he attributes Jesus' righteousness to them. Jesus did not sin, and when he died on the cross he took the punishment for the sins of the whole world. Because God loves us and wants us to come back to him, the only thing that he requires is this belief - it's an open invitation which every single person is capable of taking up.

If you don't believe in Jesus you are not accepting God's offer, but instead are setting your own terms. I want to be saved/forgiven/go to heaven, but I want to do it my way, not your way.

A wrong action requires a consequence for that person to be restored. If someone murders another person, they go to prison. If we break something, we pay for it, or make amends. If a child hits another child, they say sorry. This is what justice is, and most of us manage to abide by society's rules quite well. But God's standards are perfection, which no one can hope to attain, hence his offer of salvation.

This is why the entire point of Christianity is not about being good. It's about how we are not good, at all. Many great Christians describe themselves as the worst of sinners, because they realise how far they fall short of the true definition of good (morally excellent, virtuous, righteous).

Lifeisgoodish you're exactly right that trying to live a good life in this life is its own reward, and brings many benefits. But a Christian's aim in life is not to be good, but to love and glorify God and try to please him, and what pleases God most is when we realise that we actually need him.

Religion is a remarkable phenomenon. First invent a problem (the idea of an afterlife and a hell that you need 'saving' from) and then a 'solution' (which only makes any sort of sense in the context of a culture which sacrifices animals to propitiate the gods). This solution works on the basis of 'faith' so you don't have to prove any of it!
That's (very roughly) the Christian version - other religions propose their own problems and 'solutions'. Of course, in reality they've evolved rather than being carefully designed, so they're far more complicated and internally inconsistent as well as incompatible with each other.

I'm jumping in before commenting fully on this but the comment above, from notatschool, really surprised me - what pleases God most is when we realise that we actually need him.

Is that not inherently selfish of a deity? To say not that we should be good, or love each other, or try to lead good lives, but rather that we should at some point need him - which all definitely to me implies a belief that this one religion is right, and the rest are wrong?

I don't sin. I am perfectly human.

If you come from a starting point that we are not good, then perhaps we do need to be saved. But my religion comes from a starting point that we are good. We have the capacity to do both good and evil, and the freedom of choice to choose.

Perfection is overrated. Putting the case of the odd psychopath to one side, it is our flaws and foibles that make us interesting and lovable.

A wrong action requires a consequence for that person to be restored.

I find the idea of a third party taking a punishment morally abhorrent. I am responsible for my mistakes, no one else.

Are God's standards perfection?

I find the idea of a third party taking a punishment morally abhorrent. I am responsible for my mistakes, no one else.

This, too.

I'm really willing to try and explain what I believe and answer questions, but it takes (me, at least) a long time to try to put it into writing. If you feel I don't/can't answer you properly I apologise! There are loads of resources out there that put it much better than I can.

This site, for instance - adam4d.com/good/

Erol - it's not hell we need saving from, but the problem of human sin in this life - you think humans hurting each other, being selfish etc etc is an invented problem?

Xuli - why is it selfish of a deity to want us to do what we were created for? Of course God is happy when we try to do good and love each other, but "the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever" (Westminster Shorter Catechism). Or Augustine - Thou hast formed us for Thyself, and our hearts are restless till they find rest in Thee.

By realising we need God, I mean turning to him, accepting that he Is, and that we cannot come to him by our own efforts but only through accepting his saving grace offered through his son.

Illustrated by the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 11)

(After the son has spent his inheritance and is starving) ...I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’[b] 22 But the father said to his servants,[c] ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.

That real problem needs a real solution. Taking personal responsibility for your own behaviour is a large part of it. Christianity (and many other religions) simply don't seem to work in practice to address the issues of selfishness or harming others. Sometimes appears rather to the contrary I'm afraid.

Mindtrope - all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3). Sin being transgressing the law of God. In the OT God gave the Ten Commandments, but Jesus said that even being angry with someone in your heart was as good as murdering them, or looking at another person lustfully was as good as committing adultery (Matthew 5). Lists of sins in the NT include lying, grumbling, envy, gossip. I've done all those things. Let alone all the good things I haven't done.

In Matthew 19 there was one man who believed he had kept all the ten commandments. "Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions." Just because he had not done anything bad, did not mean he had done all the good it was in his power to do.

Lifeisgoodish - You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect (Matthew 5:48).

headinhands - Everybody is responsible for their own actions, but nobody is able to atone for themselves - that's exactly what Jesus did. A dead person cannot bring themselves back to life, and the Bible says that we are dead in trespasses and sins. But "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..." (Eph 2).

you think humans hurting each other, being selfish etc etc is an invented problem?

The invented bit is needing a third party to forgive us. If I hurt someone it's between me and them. You might say it also offends such and such a god (as opposed to the other 2999 gods I could choose from) but I have no logical reason to believe your God is real. If I choose to believe in your God without reason I should also believe in the other 2999 as there is similarly no local reason to believe in them too.

God sent his son to die for my sins This is what scares me about religion.

i) Someone has their son tortured to death and religion portraits this as a good thing. Not just good, but so good that they worship it. I can't even begin to understand how anyone thinks this is anything but abhorrent.

ii) What sin has anyone committed that is so heinous that someone has to have their own son tortured to death to atone for it. Certainly not anything I have ever done.

So even if their was a 'heaven', I wouldn't want to be stuck their for eternity with a filicidal dictator.

The invented bit is needing a third party to forgive us. If I hurt someone it's between me and them.

Yes. The idea that you can get 'forgiveness' for doing wrong to another person from anyone other than that person is really quite odd.

Xuli - "which all definitely to me implies a belief that this one religion is right, and the rest are wrong?"

Yes, that's the logical conclusion. It's not OK these days to think that you are right and someone else is wrong in terms of personal belief - people don't want to be offensive, but I don't know how else to read the many, many passages in the Bible which point to this verdict.

I think that's what ACubed was asking about, and that's why I've tried to explain how I see it.

notatschool, it's pointless quoting your holy book to back up your argument to me I'm afraid.

I am not a "sinner" I don't sin.

Oxford dictionary defines sin "An immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law."

I don't believe in god so I can't sin. You may think I am a sinner- but that's just rude. Do gorillas sin? Or are they like us, just another higher primate surving on this rock flying through space.

I am human, and all the complexities that go along with that.
Perfectly imperfect.

Errol If somebody murders a child, we talk about the parents forgiving/not forgiving them.

We are all God's children - the hurt that we do each other, no matter what it is and no matter who it is to, hurts him. That is why it is right to ask forgiveness of another person, but also of God.

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (Matthew 5)

Mindtrope it's not my intention to be rude to you, I'm just classing you in with the rest of the human race, myself included. As stated before, I don't think it's logical to believe that, in the case of religion, something is true for one person and not true for another.

I don't expect Muslims, or Jews, or Atheists to believe that I am right, or that what I think is "true for me". Nor do I expect anyone to be convinced by my arguments, or swayed by reference to a book they don't believe in. I am just trying to answer the OP, and subsequent questions, and (try to) explain a viewpoint that is probably different from the majority of people on here.

notatschool, but it's rude to call people sinners- fine if you want to call yourself that, even ruder to suggest that my children are born sinners.

That is why it is right to ask forgiveness of another person, but also of God.

But it's not 'of' God but of a specific God we have no way of distinguishing from other Gods humans believe to exists. It's a bit like telling me I need to ask unicorns to forgive me. I have no reason to think they exist let alone I owe them anything. As a thought excercise, think of a God you don't believe exists and why you reject it, that's why I don't bel

Sorry, posted by accident. Think of a god you don't believe is real, that's how I feel about the god you refer to in your posts.

I can see the appeal of divine justice. It's like a happy ever after in a fairytale. I just don't see any good logical reason to think it's true despite how nice it sounds. That doesn't mean I've washed my hands of justice or suffering. It just means I think we have to do what we can here on earth to prevent suffering, and to live compassionately with ourselves and those around us, and beyond.

Data shows that we are becoming a more peaceable specie, as we learn to operate with the newer part of our brain and control the ever present reptilian/adrenalin fueledfight or flight part.