Job in Old Testament

[speedymama]

At a discussion group I go to at work, the chaplain mentioned Job and how his experiences provide answers to those who lose their faith because something bad happens to them.

I read chapter 1 last night and he has lost everything but what struck me was the last verse when he said that he came into the world with nothing and if necessary, will leave with nothing (or words to that effect).

I was wondering if those struggling with grief could find some solace in Job's suffering and his refusal to deny his faith?

What do others think of Job, his suffering and the lessons for modern society?

Love him, tbh. It's a really challenging book to study, and full of good answers to those who would suggest that those who suffer are suffering because they 'have sin' in their lives (more so than anyone else!!)

Of course, that doesn't make it an easy book, and it doesn't have pat answers to life - I think I like it all the more for that, though.

Job is one of my favourite bits of the OT. It's supposed to be the oldest bit too. Where do I start? [scratches head emoticon]

If you look at the bare bones of Job's story it could so easily be misconstrued as a riches-to-more-riches-with-a-few-difficulties-along-the-way thing, but if you start reading how low Job gets and how he reaches the point where he has no hope in anything on this earth, with friends trying to insinuate that his problems must have come about as the result of his doing something wrong...

...to be so misunderstood by those closest to him, so isolated, feeling so abandoned by everything he thought God was, in so much physical pain and mental torment...and yet he still holds onto the faith that God is there, and that is enough to 'pass the test' that God has put him through.

There is so much of human nature there too. When things go wrong we so often look for someone to blame - it's much easier to focus our pain or frustration on one person rather than accepting that life sometimes is hard for no obvious reason.

It's not a book of easy answers, or of prayers quickly answered. It inspires me to keep on holding on to God, to refuse to believe things about Him that would be nicer or easier (like the idea that He heals every sickness quickly), and to trust that ultimately there is reason behind the things that happen to us here on earth.

One comment that I read recently about Job was that at the point where God seemed furthest away from Job, in a funny sort of way God is closest because He is staking His reputation before the devil by saying that Job would still trust in Him. Which is a funny way of saying that when God seems furthest away and when you feel at your lowest, He is actually closest to us, drawing us towards himself in an honest spiritual search.

Sorry this was so long! But it was such an interesting question!

Thank you. I have been thinking about this on and off today. It made me think about the vicar who resigned after her daughter was killed in the 7/7/2005 bombings because she could not forgive. Having faith is indeed challenging.

It's the idea that God would test anyone that makes me turn away from this book. The god portrayed here isn't one I know at all and I think the understanding that God would make us suffer in order to test our faith (which is abominable) has done so much damage and even now it stands in the way of people being given the help they need.

Do remember that Job IS Old Testament; the whole point of Jesus really is that He came to bring the message of Love that God really wanted. Christianity is intended to put a spin on the whole of the Testaments, after all- Judaism is a more stark religion IME than Christianity, they seem to accept testing a bit more. which is fair enough, ehichever interpretation works best for the reader.

I know what you mean, N3. The idea of God testing his people is not something I find very easy either. I guess I take comfort from the idea that He never tests us beyond our abilities, and that by testing us he is showing us that he has faith in our abilities. So it's a weird sign of God's belief in us rather than a sign that He is merely toying with us.

Also I think it's impossible to look into someone else's life and to judge God on the ways that he chooses to treat that person. Like me - long term illness, frequent sicknesses...so many people have said "I don't know how you cope" etc but the truth is I do because I have to, and having these illnesses has brought me closer to God, and helped me to understand myself better and be more comforting to others in pain. That's a kind of test, isn't it?

I know many people might find this difficult or just plain disagree, but I find it helpful. Life and faith are not easy!

Also..how about the idea that He takes us to the very edge of our natural human abilities so that he can show us what it's like when we have Him alone and not ourselves to rely on?

"When I am weak, then I am strong" - that's one of the big messages of Job IMO.

Rosey, I know how poorly you have been and still get, and I am glad for you that you get comfort and understanding from Job. But, no, I don't see it the way that you do. I just think that suffering is a part of being human, and that although we can find comfort from God in our times of crisis it is not a test, nor can God intervene in the way we would wish. As you know my faith is taking a bit of a hammering these days...I think that although my intellectual doubts date back over a couple of yrs I stopped getting any strength or comfort from it back in the summer when ds was born, and dd2 was in hospital the next day after collapsing, and then all three dcs were ill. I really have tried since to keep it going but it's like there is nothing there any more. If I thought that my dcs esp. dd2 suffering - or the suffering of any child - was a test then I would no longer believe in any deity. I hope that I don't offend you, I find your faith and strength humbling, sadly these are things that I no longer have.

Hmm...a very thought-provoking post N3. I'm not sure if I believe that God would put a child through any test, whether of suffering or anything else.

For one thing, you just don't get that in the Bible. Abraham's great test was the sacrifice of Isaac - it wasn't Isaac's test, it was Abraham's (if you see the distinction). It's adults who are tested in scripture, people whose faith has already been 'tested' in the little things before moving on to the big guns.

Like, going back to Job, God already knew him to be a person of integrity, "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil" (Job 1 v.1). So I get the impression Job had already endured - and passed - lots of little tests, lots of temptations thwarted, lots of times when he'd remained faithful to God when it was tough - so what you get in the book of Job is an escalation of the stakes rather than a bombshell out of nowhere. This makes me think of a fantastic book I'm reading which had the little sentence in it that 'God calls us to die to ourselves many times daily' so that we can know his resurrection power.

Another OT exmple that comes to mind is David's comment re. Goliath - "The Lord who delivered me from the paw of the lion and from the paw of the bear, He will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine" (1 Samuel 17 v. 37). So that's the Biblical idea of God testing his people - testing faith in order to strengthen it by starting out with comparitively little things, then upping the ante as people rise to the challenge, not to make their lives unbereable but to show them how much they can achieve through faith in him and with him.

THe suffering of children is a much harder thing to understand IMO and I can only say we live in a fallen world and we are born inheriting that inherent fallenness, imperfection, broknenness of humanity, both physically and spiritually. Which is why so amny innocent children suffer, and die, through no fault of their own and dure to no sin and no test (how could God test a child? that would be so unjust).

The thing that gives me comfort and hope there is that Emmanuel - God with Us - CHrist is there with us in the midst of our pain and suffering, and on the cross he suffered more than anyone ever will so He knows and he goes through it with us. And I so believe that each little one who dies will be in heaven, being cherished by the heavenly father. That doesn't lessen our grief here on earth - I can't imagine anything worse than losing a child.

Sorry, another rambling, long post! I'm not offended at all by what you say, IMO it's good to question, to be honest with oureslves, to reach towards the truth.

Yes, but the greatest suffering in my life has been through watching my dcs suffer, and fearing that they might die, and also the grief that I have for my friend's little boy. As for his parents' grief...You see, that is what I find impossible to believe, that God tested my faith by allowing children to suffer. So by extension I can't then believe that any suffering is a test, because everyone is someone's child, someone's beloved. I do not want to make assumptions about your own family, so forgive me if this is an unwelcome comment, but I know my mother suffers when I do.

I'm afraid that I've never been able to accept the doctrine of fallen creation, even when I was at my most conventional in my beliefs - I just kept quiet b/c it was clearly something that I should believe in. I can understand how the Fall could be used to explain human evil, but not cancer cells or a tsunami.

I do believe in an afterlife, and I believe it to be a place of safety.

Hi

I understand where you are coming from, 2 of my children have SN, one has high functioning autism and one isa t yet undiagnosed but has developmental and language issues (seing PAed on Monday actually)

How can I Ok that with my faith? I'm not sure, tbh. I guess my feeling is that god is the one who gives me the strength to try and handle it, I don't think he caused the problems.

I think we are a planet that has everything and I don't think God interferes in the day to day running, I think he does trhough give us the resources to help, and he guides us there. For example, He gave us hospitals, and medicines, and parental love. And if we ask, He will give us amazing strength.

I think one has to find their own understanding of these things. For me, my faith carries me through. I don't feel alone in any of what is a huge, often sad, always challenging life that I didn't ask for. When ds3 is sleeping in sodden clothes because he has lost his bladder control yet agin, I can cope. Its not much, but I can.

Peachyclair, your post shames me. For all that has happened, I have three healthy dcs. I agree totally with what you say, that God is there not to interfere but to give us strength.

Your post has made me cry.

You sound like an amazing mother.

Hope all goes well with the paed.

Thank you nearlythree your post sounds scarier than mine tbh- I've never ahd that will they survive question to deal with.

You will find your own answers.

Peachy, it sounds worse than it was, dd1 was v. ill at birth but got better v. quickly, and dd2 has had suspected menigitis twice last yr - the first time she was v. poorly with a mystery virus but the second time, although her collapse was v. dramatic and I know that both our GP and the paramedic were panicking about her, she did get better v. quickly. The big problem was that this happened that day after I'd had ds so I was hormonal and spent the first week of ds' life on my own on the maternity ward - dh being on the childrens' ward with dd2 - convinced dd2 was going to die. Then when I got home dd1 started with CP, and NHS direct mis-informed me that ds would have a 1 in 5 chance of dying if he got it (that only applies if there is no maternal immunity, which I have) so I then spent three weeks' waiting for ds to get horribly ill, which he didn't, but poor little dd2 got a stonking dose of it, by which time I was virtually unable to function as a mother. I hated this summer and I feel robbed and so, so angry - not with anyone, just circumstance. But they found dd2 is anaemic and iron supplements have transformed her, and the dcs are all well and happy. But it was horrible esp. for dd2 and I am terrified it will all start up again.

What I can't understand is that I used to have a very rich prayer life, to the extent that sometimes I would hear God or even get visions. By the time this happened I'd begun to doubt my faith and my experience of it was less intense. But I still thought my faith would have given me something when I needed it - instead there was nothing.

I'm glad you are finding your way through to an understanding. You really do sound like an amazing mum.

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Bloss . I am so, so sorry, for you, for this boy and for his poor family. Depression is a scarey thing. I'm glad your friend is able to rely on God right now.

Thanks for your reply. I'm finding it very hard to know what to say. I haven't given up belief in a loving God, but when I have needed God he/she wasn't there and isn't there. And the harder I try, the less real it all is. Yet it was real once...You say about proving how strong I am? The thing is, I think I have survived the past year without God's help. It looks awful typed out but there it is.

Maybe it's that the old ways are no longer right for me, I don't know. My faith has become so confusing lately.

So how are you?

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nearlythree - I just want to post that I hear what you're saying and that I've been there myself. I thought for a long time that God wasn't answering our prayers and that they were falling on deaf ears. But it seems that there was a situation waiting to unfold and we just had to be patient.
My own experience FWIW is that sometimes God is distant so that we don't rush into a situation but wait for his timing. The only thing I can say is that His presence has come back and I don't really know precisely why it disappeared for a while but that it stopped me making some wrong decisions.
I'm probably rambling but just want to say hang in there, there is a purpose to this last year. Sometimes I wonder if we have to go through things so that we can help people in the long run. I wish you trust and perserverence and hang on to the times when you've known Him
xxx

Not sure if anyone mentioned this but it wasn't God who did this to Job. He did allow it but he also put restrictions on how far the tests were to go.

N£ sometimes you DO have to get through stuff by yourself, I think. If this life is a test.... then how can we rely on God to carry us through it? If only it were so easy.

Bloss, I agree about your notion that if you are close it moves you closer. When ds1 was diagnosed, I felt it was a sign there was no God- but DS3 was diagnosed this week (more severely) and as I am now back in faith, I DO feel I have needed God and he is there, somewhere.

I am maybe opposite to you: My intellectual side says no way, my emotional side is very atatched- embarassingly there's a pinting of Christ at the local church, and when I see it I fel like crying

Bloss, you are so right, I really miss having that presence, that sweetness, b/c it was something I had in my life really from childhood. I think it was my intellectual doubts that killed what was in my heart in the end. I still believe in God, but in a very different way and maybe that is a block to me experiencing a personal relationship? I don't need to tell you I envy your certainty - it must be very reassuring to argue intellectually that it is all true even if it doesn't feel that way. I do think a big problem has been the lack of time and space I get, plus disillusionment with the church.

Mog, thank you. I went through something similar before, it is hard to explain but I felt God's presence go out of my life. The difference that time was that I still believed everything I did before, it was like there was a curtain between me and God but he (as I thought of God at the time) was still there. It was only when I changed some priorities in my life that the curtain was pulled aside. I am glad that you have been able to make sense of your experience. I don't believe in predestination, I don't believe that anything that happened is a part of any plan - it all just seems like a huge mess.

PeachyClair I know you wanted a diagnosis for dd3, but this must be so hard for you. I'm so glad you have God's comfort in the midst of this.

Sorry, DS3, Peachy