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Philosophy/religion

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Atheists don't need faith

464 replies

EdithSimcox · 25/05/2016 17:00

Atheists don't need faith

Lots of interesting things here including:

  • nearly half of us are non-religious but less than a fifth are atheist...
  • atheists need "simply more than can be proved by logic and science"

Any thoughts? A view I've often seen expressed on MN is that logic and science are the end of the subject.

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 27/05/2016 15:15

"You believe God exists or you believe he's made up. Both are a set of beliefs that you hold to."

Complete misunderstanding. As I said below, an atheist is simply the person who isn't convinced by your God story.

It is the opposite of a belief.

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:16

X post.

But really, if Agnostic, why all the fuss concerning Christianity et al? If rational, why the insistence on passivity and concern over what is the default position for humans? If passive and default, why the quibbling over whether this is a kind of faith (as it is not reasoned)?

CoteDAzur · 27/05/2016 15:20

"Jassy, remarked upon atheism being 'passive'. I just find the two, rational and passive, difficult to reconcile together."

Passive, as opposed to evangelical - as in, doesn't need to convince/convert anyone else.

Not passive, as in braindead.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 27/05/2016 15:21

Can a theist please answer this question: why are theists so motivated to see atheism as being as faith-based as religion?

CoteDAzur · 27/05/2016 15:22

Answer: Makes them feel better about themselves. "See, they have as logically indefensible a position as ours".

Which of course is not true.

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:23

Bert, spot on for me. And for the record I said that for some atheists it was a passive state of affairs. In that they don't need to do anything about it, they don't go round saying 'hey, I wonder if I believe in any gods today', it's not an active part of their lives.

It's sort of how I am about olives. I don't like them. This in no way affects my life on a day to day basis. It isn't something I think about pretty much ever, unless someone offers me one and I say 'no thanks, not for me'. Occasionally someone will try to press one on me and won't take no for an answer, or someone will tell me I can't have a meal I want without olives. I find that annoying.

There is no olive-shaped hole in my life. I feel no need to find an olive I like. Equally I feel no need to dissuade others from liking olives, or to campaign for olives to be banned. If eating olives became a condition of getting my child into local state schools, or there was a daily olive-eating ceremony in school, I would campaign against that, obviously.

The difference, of course, is that I'm reasonably sure olives exist.

I think the 'bitter' comment was aimed at me as well. What did you base it on? You couldn't be further off the mark.

You talk about 'declaring atheism' as opposed to agnosticism (which a lot of people don't see as discrete categories anyway). I can see why you'd do that if you see religion as the default human condition. I think for many atheists (not me) it's the opposite. Atheism is the default, and they have seen no reasons come along that would lead them to develop religious belief.

For me, atheism was an active choice. I stopped believing in the Christian god and couldn't see any reason to believe in any others. The removal of religious belief meant I was, by default, an atheist. That atheism plays as much a role in my life as not liking olives, only there are fewer MN threads about olives.

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:25

I mean I can imagine a reasoned thought process in Agnosticism, it is decided there is inconclusive evidence for God. But atheism? Being without belief in God? Tricky...does an absence of anything, belief included, require rational thought?

Only in a situation where religious belief is presented as a societal default/requirement/benefit. If one is not presented with any religious stories or ideas, atheism is as you say automatic.

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2016 15:29

"But really, if Agnostic, why all the fuss concerning Christianity et al? If rational, why the insistence on passivity and concern over what is the default position for humans? If passive and default, why the quibbling over whether this is a kind of faith (as it is not reasoned)?"

What sort of fuss? I don't care if people are theists- so long as they don't have any impact on me and mine- and by mine I include the society I live in. Unfortunately, in Britain today this is not the case.

BertrandRussell · 27/05/2016 15:30

And I don't know what you mean by "insistence on passivity"

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:30

And I don't know what you mean by "insistence on passivity"

Neither do I.

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:32

Ah, You have returned, Jassy! Not all Christians are Evangelical in the commonly understood sence either. A lot concentrate on being living and caring whilst not exactly advertising they are Christian, not hiding it either.
Love like expressed in this Billy Bragg song,,

m.youtube.com/watch?v=4mMUJFAd4rQ

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:34

Loving not living. Typo.
Insistence on passivity as it was argued rather passionately.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 27/05/2016 15:36

Grin at olives.

The difference for me was that I was brought up to think olives were great that if I stopped eating olives I would become really sick. It took me ages to admit to myself that I didn't like olives and I was scared to go without them.

But I gave them up and nothing happened. I was so relieved and felt so liberated from the feelings of guilt and fear I'd experienced that I ran around for a while shouting "you don't need to eat olives if you don't want to!"

It was a lot of fun but I've calmed down now. I get kind of Hmm when I meet passionate olive-eaters because I'm not sure if they really like olives or if they're just eating them because they have been told to. I think it's the latter mostly because in other places people are told the same about tomatoes and everyone there likes tomatoes instead.

But these days I just mostly olive and let olive. Smile

MangoMoon · 27/05/2016 15:42

I just find the two, rational and passive, difficult to reconcile together. Rationality, surely requires a rational, reasoned, thought process, does it not?

For me, personally:

Brought up with no religion, not religious.
Completely passive as I'm wholly indifferent to it.

When someone asks my faith, it requires a conscious thought and action to answer.
As I have no faith and don't subscribe to the idea that there may be something, I answer "I am an atheist".

I am an atheist rather than agnostic because I actively reject it when I am required to give it any thought for whatever reason.

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:43

Ah, You have returned, Jassy!

Yep, was at the hospital with my baby. MN came second.

Not all Christians are Evangelical in the commonly understood sence either. A lot concentrate on being living and caring whilst not exactly advertising they are Christian, not hiding it either

I know this - why raise it? But all atheists in the UK face structural special treatment afforded to religions and particularly Christianity, which means atheism can't be the sort of thing that requires no rational thought that you posit (and some of us would prefer).

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:45

Hope, your baby is OK Jassy.

Passivity requires no rational thought, was what I suggested.

MangoMoon · 27/05/2016 15:46

Loving the olive & tomato based analogies.

I will be stealing them for the future if I ever need to!
Grin

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:47

And others (and I) have explained what we mean by passivity in this sense. But given religion won't leave us alone, the passive is forced into action, right?

Theydon't - I used to pretend to like olives too. And good point on the tomato-eaters.

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:48

Evangelical conversation was prompted when you discussed how atheism can be related to passivity. I responded Christianity does not have to be Evangelical (capital E) either.

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 15:51

I actually had a thought the other day concerning how I think atheists and Christians can be drawn to each other, there can be compunction to protect and be fascinated by what each of us sees as vulnerable in the opposite position.

DioneTheDiabolist · 27/05/2016 15:52

In my late teens and twenties I was a "passive atheist". This thread is the first time I've heard that phrase and it is an accurate description. For me gods only existed in stories and I didn't have to do anything about it.

Most atheists I know are passive atheists.Grin

JassyRadlett · 27/05/2016 15:52

Evangelical conversation was prompted when you discussed how atheism can be related to passivity. I responded Christianity does not have to be Evangelical (capital E) either.

Most doctrine requires some form of evangelism. But even without evangelism the state raises these issues - state funded schools that discriminate on faith, Christian worship in all state schools, seats for the bishops in the House of Lords, etc. The state doesn't provide a neutral space.

CoteDAzur · 27/05/2016 16:07

"Passivity requires no rational thought, was what I suggested."

That's because you still don't understand what people mean by 'passive' in this context. Again: It is used as the opposite of evangelical. Not as a synonym for 'moron waiting to be told what to think'.

SpinnakerInTheEther · 27/05/2016 16:08

Jassy well, just like passivity, it seems evangelism is on a scale, from not hiding what is believed to shouting it at people. I have not found my faith demanding much shouting from me yet.

Regarding government structures, school admissions criteria, ordinary Christians have about as much say as people of other beliefs and no beliefs. We all come up against various manifestations of the Status Quo, at one time or another. People will fight against it according to their individual motivations and priorities.

VoyageOfDad · 27/05/2016 16:09

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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