Baptism for non religious reasons?

[Penguin2]

Has anyone out there had their children baptised for non religious reasons, eg to get them into a school or to provide them with a broader social life? Are you prepared to talk about it?

What about if someone who was religous decided to send their child to a non religous school just because it was better. You could argue that they should send them to the religous school to give the non religous more chance of getting in.

I really don't care. At the end of the day i would do whatever it took to get my child a place in good school. Why should my child be denied a good education if the nearest non religous school is crap.
Yes it's hypocritical but i'd rather be a hypocrite than have my kids education suffer.

But the non religious school will not go against your beliefs in the same way as if you were sending your child to a church school when you didnt believe in the ethos. YOu can still be relgious and send your child to a non religious school and fully support the ethos.
I wouldnt dream of pretending my child was muslim, jewish etc in order to send them to a "better" school because education is far more than the basic subjects surely and I would have to be comfortable with the ethos of the school.
That said I havent been in the position where I havent been able to send my ds to an excellent school without lying so it is difficult to take the moral highground.

I think the school system should be entirely neutral on religion, that no child should be denied access to a state school on the basis of their parents' beliefs and that religion should be taught but not indoctrinated as truth - no more than one political view should be taught as truth, or one economic model. Then those who wanted their children to be religious would still be free to take them to church etc.
I also think that no state school should have compulsory acts of worship. I have no choice but to send my child to a school where they have a religious act of worship, even though I shall be perfectly clear in telling him that religion isn't true and God is just a story. So I have no choice but to contradict his school, do I?

You can though arrange for your child to be withdrawn from the act of worship. I dont know why more parents dont do this. Its ludicrous to see children from all different faiths, religious and non religious having to take part in hymns, prayers, listening to the local vicar etc.

You can also have your child withdrawn from re lessons. Officially you need to arrange the alternative supervision but most schools would be quite happy to do this themselves.
To the religious people it is not just a "story" and that remark would be very offensive and disrespectful.

I wouldn't send my child to a religous school and then expect them to not take part in the religous things. It wouldn't bother me, and as i'm not religous it would teach my kids some things i couldn't, which would be fine with me.
Likewise if any of my kids wanted to go to church i would take them.

I have a degree of sympathy for your argument Aloha, and it is well put. But how would you feel is, say, a fundimantalist Christian or Muslim family withdrew their children from Biology lessons where contraception and evolution were taught? By law they can't do this at the moment (unless they home ed). I would be very uneasy at seeing children growing up ignorent of these facts. I would also be unhappy at the thought of children growing up ignorent of the belief sytems that exist even if I don't subscribe to them myself.

I'm quite happy for state schools to teach children about Christianity in RE lessons 50 per cent of the time. It's the dominant culture of this country so it's very important for children to understand how we got where we are. You can't really understand the history or geography or art or literature or classical music of Europe without some understanding of the role of Christianity, whether or not you believe that the teachings of the Anglican church are correct. I'd object if the schools taught that Christianity is the only truth and other religions are wrong but that's not what the syllabus says, I think. (I'm sure someone will tell me if it is). If the parents are members of other religions, presumably they will choose whether or not to withdraw their kids from RE and Assembly and teach their kids about their own faith at home. Some Jewish girls at my school didn't attend Assembly, I can't remember whether they went to RE (not sure what the handful of other religions did as not in my class).

eddm, they are not taught that christianity is the truth nuy nor are they taught enough to realise and understand the connection to the things you have mentioned.

Faith schools are still too firmly in place in the UK for this dream to happen. Over a quarter of all primary schools are CofE, and the LEAS simply couldn't afford to buy them out even if they wanted to (not counting the RC etc).

BTW, IME the religious criteria only apply if the school is over-subscribed. I'd be intrigued to know if the Muslim schools get these issues. If you are not Cof E than you can apply to a CofE school. If it is oversubscribed then some form of criteria have to apply, or the school has to grow.

G'fairy, again this varies area to area, but the growth in the so-called black churches is far greater than in white middle-class.

As far as the relative morality of church-going is concerned, the governors of va and foundation schools are generally well-aware of who is going along for the schools admissions (at least in our urban area - not sure how it would work in rural, but I guess you have greater experience there). The fact that they may choose to "go along" with it, is illustrative of the fact that they are happy that these parents will be as much or an greater positive influence to the school as those chosen by the next criteria (usually distance from school gate). If they're not happy, then they can also "up the criteria" as far as religious commitment is concerned, but if people are that keen for a religious education then the more, the merrier.

Am answering the original post and not the intervening scrap (haven't read it all). When I was doing classes before my baptism (aged 21) the minister asked me what happened to someone who got baptized without believing that Jesus was the living God. I was stumped. Couldn't think. What happens? The answer was, "they get wet". Without belief, baptism is a social ritual, a naming ceremony, a lovely occasion. The issue as I see it is not the baptism, its any lies you might have to tell (eg if you can't tell the minister or the school that you and your child don't actually believe their flavour of religion). So its down to whether you feel it is ok to sometimes lie.

Could be tricky if my kids ever have to be baptized to attend a school. I'm a Christian and I hope my kids will choose to be too. They probably won't learn about it at school, and they'll only learn the basics from what I tell them - like everything else, they'll learn from what they see me do and how they see me live. But no way are they getting baptized until they're old enough to know what they're doing and choose it for themselves!

Interesting that someone posted that Christian schools ought to be inclusive. Now I can see that being a state school ought to make them inclusive. But being Christian wouldn't make them inclusive. Christianity is surely the most EXclusive religion? "the only way to the father is through me [Jesus]" and all that? If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, died so we could be forgiven our self-centredness, and rose from the dead - then you are a Christian and can go to heaven. If not, not. Pretty exclusive.

Actually I think they ought to make sure all the teachers are Christian, then why does it matter about the kids/parents? As long as the parents accept that the teachers are going to teach/demonstrate what they believe, so that the kids have the knowledge they need to decide for themselves? I mean, the Christian kids don't need the church school, they can learn about it at home can't they?

I could be wrong, but isn't it the case that you can't select an employee on the basis of religion? I know that there were some exceptions, but I seem to remember that schools and religious organisations were not exempt (though presmably finding a suitably qualified non-muslim Iman would be quite a challenge!)

you are not right ladymuck as having interviewed for a headship in a ce school they have to sign a declaration of adherence to ce code and whilst we interviewed rc people they ahd to face a panel (rather hositle as I recall) from the church who asked them direct questions about god and their faith. All teacherws in the school have to say that they are practising christians and whilst we would still intervciew on that basis they were unlikely to get through and needed a faith reference just like the kids. Personally I do not go along with this and am no longer chair of governors plus I moved to put my kids in a more inclusive multi faith mulit cultural school

Yes, it seems that the new act leaves the old one relating to teachers unchanged. Assume your school was va then, (only RE teachers could be required to be of the appropriate religion in vc schools IIRC).

Very interesting thread.

We are a Christian family and obviously are bringing the kids up as Christians. BUT I would never "have" the children baptised for any reason as don't believe that there is any biblical basis for doing so. A person should be baptised by choice and when they repent of their sins. Your average baby doesn't have that many sins and certainly can't repent of them!

Was interested that hmb referred to evolution as a "fact". So far, it's only a theory. But that's a whole other arguement ...

discordia - have just trawled through this entire thread hoping that someone with some biblical knowledge would stick their head above the parapet - and you did!! Thank you! Children's baptism - competely unscriptural!! Evolution - still a theory!! Am your new best friend

although catholics believe that babies are born with original sin!

Ooh, thanks m of s, I expected to be shot down in flames for my archaic views!

hercules, I know. But if God would send a baby to hell just because it hadn't had water splashed on it then ... well, words fail me.

I'm afraid Hercules that I believe it is just a story just as much as you believe it is true - I am sure you will teach your kids that it is true, and I shall teach mine that it isn't.I don't see the difference?
Of course I want my child to know about religion - he already does a bit - and how it has shaped the world. I just don't want him to to be taught that it is true, which goes against my beliefs, principles and morality.

Aloha - that's what my mum and dad taught me...unfortunately - one teenage rebellion later and I'm a full time evangelical youth worker - indoctrinating all the children My mum curses the day she didn't take me to church!

m of s - do you work for a church or another organisation?

It's a charity supported by the local churches in our town (all denominations). Not working atm - sahm so do one afternoon/week.

As a lapsed RC (but not a cradle one - I converted in my teens) I may be wrong here but I thought confirmation was about confirming the vows made for you by your parents and godparents when you were baptised as a baby. Now I don't want to lie as someone put it earlier, but what harm can there be if I promise on behalf of my children to renounce sin? Afterall, in essense, we all want our kids to be free of "sin". No-one says, "oh well done X you have stolen from me" or any other naughtiness. Also, I thought baptism was about welcoming a child into the family of God. If I don't believe in God, what is that to God or the church? When we took our first born to church, the priest practically fell upon my child and said "Oh good, another one for the church" (his precise words) That was what put me off getting him baptised as I felt very strongly that my beautiful child was none but mine and my dh's and resented the church trying to claim him as theirs. Now, I feel a bit differently as I would like my children to be part of the family of the church and I want them to hear about Jesus and make their own mind up about God as I did when I was a teenager. I just thought baptism would be a good place to start. I didn't expect this debate on the rights and wrongs of Church schools.