So stressed taking children to church (long, sorry)

[LightTheLittleLight]

Went to mass tonight with my 3 DC aged 11, 9 and 3. DD (3yo) is pretty good and quieter than most but became a little wriggly at times. Church was cramped and at times she leant against the back of the pew in front. Each time, a woman sat on said pew turned and glared at me and DD, muttering. I removed DD each time, sat her on my lap and (in frantic whispers) asked her to stop wriggling. It got more and more stressful, and the 3rd or 4th time I got such a glare and a hiss to move her that I just picked up DD and marched out of the church.

I went straight outside, sat on the steps and cried I appreciate that the other parishioner clearly found it irritating to have a small child behind her but she could see that I was doing my best to keep her quiet and still (and in truth, there were several other children being louder than DD who was communicating only in whispers to me). But I felt as though we were both horribly unwelcome.

I couldn't leave and go home as other DC were still in church (sat with good friends, perfectly safe), so in the end we stood in the church foyer for the second half of mass, just going in for communion. Came straight home afterwards where I'm now feeling like crap and wondering if I can face taking DD again.

I know that sounds overdramatic but our particular parish church has a general background of not being child friendly and I feel like it's really wearing me down. The priest also does the glaring and tutting behaviour at small children and has been known to stop mass entirely and ask for a child to be removed before he will continue. I should say that he has never directed this at DD and certainly tonight didn't even look in her direction - so I was surprised she was attracting so much hostility from person on next pew. But his attitude (which seems to be reflected in some of the parishioners) means that I am constantly on edge when I have DD with me.

There is no toy/children's corner - in fact no toys are allowed (I used to take in e.g. crayons and non-noisy figurines etc to occupy). Half a column on the weekly parish newsletter is taken up with bullet point commands (in bold and SHOUTY CAPS) instructing people to control their children (e.g. Do not bring toys into church, Do not allow children to move around etc). Some of which are clearly reasonable - but a whole half column!

The confusing thing is that the parish schools' admissions criteria require 18 months' regular church attendance prior to application to get the highest priority, so they are obviously expecting children to attend from 2-3 years of age at the latest; yet there is no provision for them, and worst of all, very little tolerance. I should say there is a children's liturgy that goes on during the sunday mass, but this is only for children of school age up until they start preparing for first holy communion (7/8 years old).

I'm not sure what the answer is. I couldn't concentrate and didn't get anything out of mass tonight except for feeling like complete rubbish afterwards. DD is certainly getting nothing out of sitting through a service she doesn't understand and being glared at as though she shouldn't be there.

Please don't all pile on and tell me I just need to control my child. I fully recognise that all children, including mine, can be irritating, and I don't let them misbehave, honestly. I've been taking children to church for 11 years and if they're not coping or their behaviour has ever been unacceptable of course I would take them outside (and have done in the past) but I've never been upset about it. It's the lack of tolerance that's upsetting I think.

Rant over. Thanks for reading

Three is such a difficult age to sit through a Mass but it sounds like that is one intolerant ignorant person who you had the misfortune to sit near. Amazing how these people seem to have forgotten what it was like to bring children to Mass.

You done your best to stop your child from continuing to 'irritate' her, that's all you could do at the time.

Like you I avoid the childrens Mass because it seems to be chaotic but I wouldn't want to attend the evening Masses either because they are the opposite - really quiet with no music at all so every little moan, squeal etc seems amplified. My boys are 4 and 7 (also have a six month old baby girl) and we go to an 11am Mass where there is usually music and since having to sit nearer the front a few years ago (because of potty training and needing to be near the toilets) they have become more interested. Our priest is not very tolerable at the moment and rolls eyes/grimaces when children make excessive noise. One time my (then) two year old wandered off to the front pew and somehow got his foot wedged on the kneeler resulting in it smashing down to the floor with such a loud bang it sounded like a gun shot! It was just unfortunate and it never happened again but I have had to take him out a few times when we've been unable to placate him for one reason or another. The priest knows us well, we attend every week and my kids are generally very well behaved so I'd be furious if I got evil glares/rolling eyes/tuts from him.

I think from the age of four they should know how to behave during Mass but even then there will always be moments. I have to admit that it does irritate me when other parents bring 'noisy' food and toys to entertain their children - they won't starve for the 45 minute service and it distracts other children.

Whoever has composed those unwelcoming shouty caps 'guidelines' either doesn't have children or has also conveniently 'forgotten' how difficult it can be. As long as you are attending every week things can only get better and you're just as entitled as anyone else to be there. Remember that the church belongs to the parish, not the priest.

I think the OP mentioned the matter was brought up before with this particular curmudgeonly old bat priest, and that he seemed to brush it off and doesn't apparently mind that previous families have left for other parishes because they felt their small children were not welcome. The priest apparently stops speaking during Mass, glares and tuts, and asks for children to be removed. I very much doubt he would care if yet another parent were to tell him off.

The weekly bulletin features orders not to let children move around and forbidding toys or other distractions and requiring parents to control their children. In bold and/or in shouty caps no less.

This is why the angry older parishioners feel so free to tut and disapprove.

So I think the bishop needs to hear all about it, and the dean, and maybe a copy of that horrible bulletin page needs to be forwarded too.

Riiiight. So rather than speaking about her concerns to the members of the congregation elected to represent the views and needs of the church members or even booking in a 15 min sit down with the priest to suggest something along the lines of a corner similar to one she enjoyed, or to query the possibilty of a breakout room with audio and toys - no, the OP's only option is to go straight to the Bishop and Dean.

Why would she bother wasting her time with the priest who has been approached before?

It would take her ten minutes to compose a letter to the bishop, scan the offensive bulletin, copy it all to the dean, and get the relevant people who might be able and willing to lend her a sympathetic ear clued up on what is happening.

The priest has been approached before. He does not care how badly parents of young children feel or that families have decamped to other parishes.

'There is another church locally that a fairly large portion of our parishioners have already "defected" to over the years since this priest came to our parish.'

'This particular priest has been the subject of complaints before, not from me, but from others I know. Nothing seems to change.'

I appreciate that Roman Catholic churches may be different, but I have been to a fair few churches in my life due to Uni, moving house etc and they ALL had a creche and some form of children's church. Keeping children in a service designed for adults is just not going to work for anyone! Hopefully you can find somewhere better and more child friendly OP.

As a RC parent, I have only experienced churches that had a children's room or cry room, often located in the room on the opposite side of the sanctuary from the vestry or in a space carved out from the foyer/vestibule.

The church I grew up in was a very basic structure that couldn't accommodate any of this so children (and the odd dog, as mentioned) were always all over the place during Mass and there was always a hubbub of children's voices and background squawking.

It does tend to work out eventually, and most children over four in my parish can comfortably make it through an hour of Mass even if sometimes with the help of colouring books, cheerios, or reading along. But having the cry room there is a great standby, and at the busiest Sunday Mass you can go there yourself with your baby or toddler, or drop a DC off and some of the parish teens supervise playing.

@mathanxiety

Why would she bother wasting her time with the priest who has been approached before?

Because people very rarely actually complain or raise issues affectively.

They tend towards mutterings, or trying to speak when the other person actually has other stuff to do and then are surprised that they don't get a good outcome or claim that everyone has complained when it amounts to speaking with each other rather than the relevant party.

Churches have very established ways for raising concerns internally other than by speaking with the priest and to go to the Bishop in the first instance undermines the system and more importantly her argument with the very people she needs on board.

I speak from experience that people wanting to raise concerns tend to do it when you are busy, trying to set up, xx is about to start, you are clearing up and need to go home, looking almost subliminally to dilute the message. What I want to know is if the OP (and the everyone unhappy) has properly spoken to anyone rather than all being unhappy before going to DefCon Bishop.

My RC friend has been staying over Easter and went to church yesterday, she came home laughing about the fact that one of the hymns was evidently "peace perfect peace" accompanied by the very loud squealing of one infant. She was laughing at the irony, she was not annoyed.

I have very strong memories of trying to keep mine quiet in similar circumstances, but now in my later ready to be a GP years I'm very aware that the parents (mother!) are generally more bothered by the noise than most of the other people there.

I feel for you. I have 3 children that I take to church, the youngest was 18 months when we started going to this particular church. It is a kids friendly church, and it has a Sunday school, so most kids are out during the main service. Parishioners are mostly forgiven of other people's kids annoyingness within reason. And parents are nice enough to take their screaming children out if it gets out of hands. I tend to agree with posters that you might want to try to find another church if your kids are just normal kids making normal kids disturbance.

I would go back to the priest and tell him how you feel. Challenge him to help make it more welcoming for the children. Tell him that going to a Sunday Mass and not hearing the low chatter of small children is like going for a walk in a wood and not hearing the bird song. If you think you could do it, talk to him about starting a children’s liturgy for the littlest – at our church we had children’s liturgy for 0-7 years only, so once they had first communion they stayed throughout Mass. Even if you were just to do it once a month it is a way of saying “children are welcome here”. Ignore anyone who tuts at you – there are people around who tut, but at any church I have been to they are very much in the minority.

If I thought a priest who actually stops speaking and glares and tuts and directly asks for certain children to be removed would be interested in the views of a parent on how wrong he is, then I would say go ahead and approach the priest first. But this is not only the person whose nasty attitude sets the tone for the judgey parishioners, he also signs off on the weekly bulletin that admonishes parents in bold and caps about what he expects them to do about their children's behaviour. That is to say, they can do it his way or leave and he has presided over the departure of many families previously.

So I would forget about doing him the courtesy of a visit in favour of a direct complaint to the Dean and the Bishop.

Churches have very established ways for raising concerns internally other than by speaking with the priest and to go to the Bishop in the first instance undermines the system and more importantly her argument with the very people she needs on board.

Yeah, that has always worked out really well for Catholics wishing to complain about priests hasn't it...

God forbid that the precious system should be undermined by some uppity woman whose child is treated like a nuisance when the mother does what is asked of her in order to get a place in the school, and what she promised to do when the child was baptised.

Ahh- I missed the bit about the priest being a glarer and tutter – that does make it harder – all the same, in my experience with a difficult priest, it is often more effective to challenge the priest directly, explain how you feel, and ask for his help (challenge him) to make the parish more child friendly (even when he is at the root of the problem) – going to the Dean or Bishop is more likely to make him defensive. Are there other parents of young children, or even kind elderly ladies, you could take with you to support you?

If all else fails you still have the option of taking things higher...

I would find another church with a family service. I used to attend a brilliant church which ran a family service and it was packed, noisy and fun! My children loved it. Numbers are dwindling at church as it is, they should be trying to get people in the doors not driving them out!

I spoke to our priest when I was organising my youngest ones baptism. As my older two skipped out of mass singing and laughing an older lady turned to her husband and said, "don't know why she brings them, it's certainly not to pray." I went home and cried .
My priest took the baby off me that day and told him, and his sisters, to make as much noise as they wanted to! He then spoke about everyone feeling welcome at the next week's homily.

After the children's liturgy the children get a sheet about the gospel to fill in, with word searches, mazes etc in it. Someone complained about the quiet children completing it as they has the audacity to have their backs to the altar! For two wks they stopped giving out the sheet to appease these people but the kids decided to play the bogey game from the Dick and Dom show. This involves saying the word bogey, gradually getting louder, until someone gets into trouble. Except the loudest child was mine, the 4yr old DS.
The cats bum faces that day were brilliant!
After church the priest asked the kids to explain the game to him! And the sheets returned the next week.

My friends daughter did a lovely job of colouring in the host one week! How she managed to get hold of it, I don't know!

Lots of us have been where you are, OP. It doesn't help at the time, I know, but I would second what a lot of people have said and try another church but explain to your priest why you are going.

You are doing a good job bringing the kids. How else will they learn?

Faith hardwires kids - it's not just about the learning, it messes with the emotional state.

What evidence are you basing this on Full? Feel free to PM me if you don't want to put it on thread.

staying out of the belief thing (and I agree with Full but this is a topic for believers) - in this country where you don't get executed for apostasy, religion has to get bums on seats by being welcoming. The OP is going to get three little atheists out of this because they will remember church as somewhere that hated them.

to have any chance of the kids seeing christianity as welcoming, friendly, charitable and all the things it is going to be; shift churches. Your older two will be taking in all that is going on.

you may still get three little atheists, but they will have a much better memory of the church and priests.

'going to be'??? What happened there? Please read as 'meant to be'.

My local church does not allow children into a Sunday service below the age of 6. They go into a seperate hall for play and a religious story while the adults and children above the age of 6 go to the service. The younger children are perfectly fine and watched.

I would find another church where children are more welcome.