So stressed taking children to church (long, sorry)

[LightTheLittleLight]

Went to mass tonight with my 3 DC aged 11, 9 and 3. DD (3yo) is pretty good and quieter than most but became a little wriggly at times. Church was cramped and at times she leant against the back of the pew in front. Each time, a woman sat on said pew turned and glared at me and DD, muttering. I removed DD each time, sat her on my lap and (in frantic whispers) asked her to stop wriggling. It got more and more stressful, and the 3rd or 4th time I got such a glare and a hiss to move her that I just picked up DD and marched out of the church.

I went straight outside, sat on the steps and cried I appreciate that the other parishioner clearly found it irritating to have a small child behind her but she could see that I was doing my best to keep her quiet and still (and in truth, there were several other children being louder than DD who was communicating only in whispers to me). But I felt as though we were both horribly unwelcome.

I couldn't leave and go home as other DC were still in church (sat with good friends, perfectly safe), so in the end we stood in the church foyer for the second half of mass, just going in for communion. Came straight home afterwards where I'm now feeling like crap and wondering if I can face taking DD again.

I know that sounds overdramatic but our particular parish church has a general background of not being child friendly and I feel like it's really wearing me down. The priest also does the glaring and tutting behaviour at small children and has been known to stop mass entirely and ask for a child to be removed before he will continue. I should say that he has never directed this at DD and certainly tonight didn't even look in her direction - so I was surprised she was attracting so much hostility from person on next pew. But his attitude (which seems to be reflected in some of the parishioners) means that I am constantly on edge when I have DD with me.

There is no toy/children's corner - in fact no toys are allowed (I used to take in e.g. crayons and non-noisy figurines etc to occupy). Half a column on the weekly parish newsletter is taken up with bullet point commands (in bold and SHOUTY CAPS) instructing people to control their children (e.g. Do not bring toys into church, Do not allow children to move around etc). Some of which are clearly reasonable - but a whole half column!

The confusing thing is that the parish schools' admissions criteria require 18 months' regular church attendance prior to application to get the highest priority, so they are obviously expecting children to attend from 2-3 years of age at the latest; yet there is no provision for them, and worst of all, very little tolerance. I should say there is a children's liturgy that goes on during the sunday mass, but this is only for children of school age up until they start preparing for first holy communion (7/8 years old).

I'm not sure what the answer is. I couldn't concentrate and didn't get anything out of mass tonight except for feeling like complete rubbish afterwards. DD is certainly getting nothing out of sitting through a service she doesn't understand and being glared at as though she shouldn't be there.

Please don't all pile on and tell me I just need to control my child. I fully recognise that all children, including mine, can be irritating, and I don't let them misbehave, honestly. I've been taking children to church for 11 years and if they're not coping or their behaviour has ever been unacceptable of course I would take them outside (and have done in the past) but I've never been upset about it. It's the lack of tolerance that's upsetting I think.

Rant over. Thanks for reading

Sounds like your dd isn't getting much out of it - why put her, and yourself through it?

Do you really want dd to go to a school that is linked to this intolerant place?

wow. I got told off by the old biddies for removing ds for shouting (lots) during prayers! half the time I can't make him sit still because someone's pulling faces at him!

find a decent church with a properly Christian attitude of friendliness and welcome. age 1+ go to Sunday school here, 3+ can go unaccompanied, just joining in for communion and a quick prayer at the end. eminently sensible

If the school allocations are a concern for you then you can either change church to one that will 'Let the little children come to me' and get both priests to sign or ignore the daft rules about toys in church, they can't stop you. You could even print out Catholic colouring pages for your dd to colour, I'd like to see them object to that!

Sounds horrible. I agree that you should find a new church. Lots of churches round here have monthly 'messy church' for families which sounds so much fun that even as a lifelong atheist I've considered taking my kids. Is there anything like that locally?

As an aside, do the children have to go to church to get into a church school or just the parents?

My younger brother has autism. The church and parishioners were a huge support to us as a family. One year when they light the last candle on the advent wreath, he started singing happy birthday and the priest agreed that was in fact quite appropriate and encouraged everyone else to join in. this is how churches, priests and masses should be.

Similar thing happened to me once.

I started going either to 6.30pm sat or 8 am Sunday mass. These are much quieter, and filled with the little old men and ladies who love babies. I could get a pew at the back to myself for them to wriggle not bothering anyone.

The busy masses are a nightmare. Loads of people, no room, and, to be frank, many go to these ones to be seen to be worshipping, which is why children disturb them.

It's really not about the school, other than the attitude seems more bizarre in light of the school's insistence that toddlers attend church to gain school admission. The school is only one of three or four we are considering. My older dc are already at a different (non-RC as it happens) primary, the only reason we won't automatically send Dd to their school is that it involves a tiresome commute so we're hoping for a more local place

I agree she's getting nothing out of attending mass at the minute and I don't want to keep taking her. Ideally I would like dd to be able to come with us and get something out of it - and I agree with pp that a different church is probably the only way to do this.

Follow that weird logic through though FulltoTheBrim and you wouldn't be able to introduce your dc to anything - life would be dull, and a pretty immature adult, without any life experiences, would emerge at 18.

Another vote for leaving, making sure you tell the priest and whoever is his superior why.
Our church has Sunday school groups for all ages from 6m to teens, plus a soundproof area with toys where you can take restless little ones and still be able to hear the service. A huge amount of wriggling and noise is tolerated with grace and many of the older members love to chat with the little ones. It's constantly reinforced from the front that the children are important and also that provision is made for parents to get some peace and spiritual input. Once a month there is total chaos an 'all age' service where everyone stays in, and although they make efforts to keep it short and punchy, normally involving drama and puppets, it's quite stressful having three children in a pew for an hour, would hate to have to do that in a service that was not family focussed.
There's also plenty going on for children outside church, regular family events, weekly club for school age kids and house groups for teens, holiday club, toddler group.....
There are early morning and evening services for anyone who prefers peace and quiet.
Find a church where children are actively welcomed!

Not at all backforgood. I am all for children being educated. But brainwashing kids into believing in mythical sky beasts is unfair.

Faith hardwires kids- it is not just about learning, it messes with the emotional state too.

Another vote for change of church, very short sighted and unchristian of the parish priest - I wouldn't consider it a true church.

I no longer practice, but I have fond memories of going every Sunday to a place where I was welcomed and valued. I still have my moral compass firmly tuned in to the good Samaritan, and it was an excellent formative experience.

I wouldn't set foot in a church where I, or my family, wasn't welcome.
Are you desperate for your DC to get into the school?
Do you have to attend that particular church or could you choose a nearby one?

All very well and good people expecting children's provision, but would you and other parents be prepared to volunteer to run something or come up with something to entertain children? I'm all for children's work and just led a group of 8-11s, but biggest problem is finding bums on seat to either lead or lend a hand.

Before you leave or escalate to the diocese as someone earlier advised, has anyone actually spoken to the priest and leadership team about engagement with kids? What solutions or ideas have you proposed to turn it round for you and the kids as an important part of the congregation? It's a partnership not a spectator sport.

Last thing, a PP may have called the other parishioner a judge birch, but the second and subsequent times your child leaned on me or interrupted me during a service would irritate me. I'm a Christian, not a saint.

At what point in the thread was the OP's decision to attend thrown open to debate, fulltothebrim?

Becles I stay with ds, help pack away, and volunteer with the oldest group. That's a damn sight more than is expected by the church of parents, volunteers are deliberately recruited from those with grown up families, retired people, etc and there is no lack especially for anything involving the dinky cute littlies this is bog standard CofE BTW, friends who attend more progressive churches have rotas for running the creche amongst other things

Hugs op, I too have 3dc and take them to the church I grew up in, and my dad still attend, I am part of that church but it's still tough some days, the youngest is 3, on normal Sunday's they go into Sunday school and are only in At beginning and the end, there is still tutting one lady told dd off the other week she is 7 I cried on the way home but also told the lady when she said hope you don't mind me thing her off that I did mind very much ! That raised a brow or two !
We have busy bags at the back and a crèche area, but sometimes it is very hard, but it will get better and as my darling mum used to say if they are busy tutting at you they are not concentrating on the real reason for being there are they

At what point in the thread was the OP's decision to attend thrown open to debate, fulltothebrim?

The moment she opened the thread. Someone has to speak up in defence of her children.

fulltothebrim my DC are far from brainwashed, believe me. DH is broadly atheist/at times agnostic and they have heard us have many animated but respectful debates...sometimes they join in, not always on the same side Close relations include Catholics, Anglicans, atheists and Muslims so they are well aware that people have different or no belief in God. As I said, they don't attend an RC school although interestingly my oldest DC (who currently claims to be "undecided") has chosen a faith secondary school. I don't know if they will be churchgoers as adults, that will be their choice of course, and they are never made to come with me if they would really rather not.

Your comment about "mythical sky beasts" doesn't really resonate with my idea of God, nor that of many of the Christians I know, but obviously you're entitled to your view.

becles I take your point about the difficulties of providing children's services/activities. Tbh while specific provision for children is fantastic, a lot of churches manage with a little children's corner rather than providing supervision/clubs etc. We visited one recently which had a lovely corner with books and jigsaws, baby toys and colouring, and dd stayed in there quietly and happily for the whole service. There was a pew and kneelers in there for parents, I tidied away at the end, it was great

Dd wasn't actually leaning on the woman btw, she leant on the pew next to where the woman was sitting. Maybe she was irritating. The woman could still have spoken with politeness and a smile instead of glaring and hissing at a 3yo, imo.

The moment she opened the thread. Someone has to speak up in defence of her children.

Then I suggest you reread the original post. Because every single other person here is answering a completely different question to the imaginary one in your head.

Oh take your nonsense somewhere else fulltothebrim.

nonsense that's a laugh.

Our church is so welcoming. All of the parishioners coo over the babies, even the teenagers! There's a lovely man who sits behind us who always tells me how good DD1 is, even when she has commando crawled under the pew

One day we were late and tried to sneak in during a quiet bit, only for DD1 to yell HELLO JESUS!... everyone just laughed at her

Find another church OP. It is sooooo lovely to feel part of a community- and I'm not even Catholic yet!

OP, I'm shocked that you had this experience. That is awful, and dare I say it, unChristian behaviour.

I would echo those posters saying go to another church - almost anywhere will seem more welcoming. But I think, if you can be brave, it's very important that you let the priest and diocese know your reasons for leaving. Good luck!

Oh, and everyone else, can we stop with the phrase "old biddies". FFS, ageist and sexist in one!

Don't leave.
Write to the leadership team (church council & priest), explaining how it made you feel; maybe phone the priest and ask if you can have a chat with them. The church as a whole might not be as "tutting" as this one individual was, and surely need to know that people are being put off or are feeling distressed at the situation. How can they improve what they offer for other parents, as well as yourself?

We had lots of animated, fidgety little ones in church this morning as there was no childrens service due to Easter holiday. It was lovely and everybody was smiling at their "contribution" to the service.
I have never been to a church where children are not made to feel welcome.
I agree with Dandy that you should have a diplomatic word with the priest about it for the sake of all the other children there.