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Original poster

Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

638 replies

Vivacia · 25/03/2015 18:33

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

OP posts:
capsium · 03/04/2015 12:52

Eternal is about as absolute as you can get, isn't it?

Although, measuring goodness is problematic, as goodness is non quantifiable. You cannot apply number to it, in any meaningful sense.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 12:53

So today it would be the equivalent of being asked to do something that many people do and value doing, which God does not require

so in those days most people were sacrificing their children to yahweh?

headinhands · 03/04/2015 12:57

To me good is what causes the least pain for the most people. It's what is conducive to people being healthy, and happy and leading productive lives where they have the best mental health possible and the best relationships as possible. So you have no way of saying what is good. You can't think of anything good in your life?

queensansastark · 03/04/2015 12:59

I'm not really an atheist, so I'm not one of the militant atheists who post with a view of "you Christians with your faith are stupid for believing what you believe, and I can debate and win and therefore prove you are wrong" attitude ...I'm just interested to see how people reconcile or make sense of morality within their faith or no faith.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:00

So anything can be good to god, if it suits him. He might have liked rape once, or he might not have had a problem with paedophillia, you are wholly unable to actually say anything that god would have always found 'not good', or bad.

catkind · 03/04/2015 13:00

Who said anything about quantifiable?
If god's morality is to be judged by the culture at the time, god is not applying an absolute morality - you're apparently subjecting him to the morality inherent in the culture.
If morality is defined by god, and changes over time - how can Christianity give us any guide to what is moral now 2000+ years down the line?

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:01

So how can you determine if what god is asking you to do is actually god or not your own mind?

It is a developing instinctive sense. 'Faith comes by hearing,' so hearing Christ preached strengthens faith, can affect a person subconsciously. So you get a sense something is right or wrong, as well as being able to think it through. This might make a person exercise caution in some areas or take the plunge in others.

This is the same instinctive sense people of other and no beliefs get. However the input, socialisation affecting the subconscious is different.

But you are right. People can get it wrong. And the Bible does talk about being given sound minds for a purpose. Also how we still should respect the laws of the land and whoever is in authority.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:02

*James 1:17

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.*

What does good mean in that verse?

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:05

One of the fruits of the spirit is goodness. What does it mean?

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:08

But you have christians who have been christians for 50 years who have very different beliefs so it can't be a universal journey. And I know that we all start a different points but even in that case christians have as many beliefs about what god wants as there are christians.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:16

Also how we still should respect the laws of the land and whoever is in authority.

How do we know the laws are what god wants? What about in countries where the laws are despicable, there are 9 countries where stoning is part of the legally recognised judicial system. So you could be in Brunei and have to agree that it is right for a gay couple to be stoned to death, but then hop on a plane and report someone for sexual discrimination? How could we possibly know which country to toe the line in, surely god isn't happy about all the laws in all the lands?

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:17

Who said anything about quantifiable?
If god's morality is to be judged by the culture at the time, god is not applying an absolute morality - you're apparently subjecting him to the morality inherent in the culture.
If morality is defined by god, and changes over time - how can Christianity give us any guide to what is moral now 2000+ years down the line?

cat you asked about how good is measured earlier. So I responded by saying you cannot measure it because it is non quantifiable. Measurement requires quantity.

I am not attempting to judge the morality of God, I was participating in a discussion with head, and others, who were judging God's actions, from the past, as bad, according to their own modern sense of morality.

How can Christianity give us any guide now? Christians believe God is living and can engage with us now, in our own individual contexts, as He did with people in the past. We can deepen our understanding of the Bible by learning about historical context. But a lot of it is also immediately relevant. It is a life long process though, and we all have natural strengths and weaknesses. So you can get a morally good atheist, who is good in lots of areas, naturally and a Christian who has problems understanding what is morally good in lots of areas, naturally - at a set point. But this is not necessarily how the their moral condition will remain.

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:20

head in that verse good means Godlike. Goodness is a Godlike quality, according to Christian belief.

If the laws of a country are despicable, you can respectfully object to them.

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:24

But you have christians who have been christians for 50 years who have very different beliefs so it can't be a universal journey. And I know that we all start a different points but even in that case christians have as many beliefs about what god wants as there are christians.

Yes, but Church unity is also an aim. So somehow the resolution to these differences needs to be sought, which is also an ongoing process (understatement).

catkind · 03/04/2015 13:29

Not measured like in pounds and ounces! I just meant measured in the sense the thread is talking about, deciding what is moral or not.

So I guess the answer we are getting from you capsium is NO christianity does not give you an absolute and objective standard of morality, as you have to relate it to the changing morals of your god (which you are not permitted to judge but must deem good at all times and places) and the laws of the land you happen to be in.

catkind · 03/04/2015 13:32

And actually you are deciding what is good or not from your internal "feeling" about what god would or would not like. How is that different from my judging from my feeling about what is good or not? If you discard as "of its time" anything you don't like the feel of in your religion, your religion is not adding to the process at all.

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:33

To me good is what causes the least pain for the most people. It's what is conducive to people being healthy, and happy and leading productive lives where they have the best mental health possible and the best relationships as possible. So you have no way of saying what is good. You can't think of anything good in your life?

There are lots of good things in my life, which I am thankful for.

The problem with the least pain for the least people argument, is that this can cause people to view sacrificing a vulnerable individual's needs, for the needs of the masses, as a good thing. I value protecting vulnerable individuals.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:38

But you have said you have no way of saying what Godlike actually means, it could be killing people for picking up sticks, or ripping people apart for having your lack of hair teased. You have no way of determining his wants at any given time, your internal values can't be trusted, because people are coming to very different opinions from this, and believe wholeheartedly they know what god wants.

Has god ever asked you to do something most people would be appalled with?

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:41

I don't view my God as changing in His morality, as I view Him as eternally morally good. But the affects of this moral goodness might cause a variety of different actions being taken according to context, cat.

How is my internal feeling different from your (I'm assuming atheist) internal feeling, cat? The external input, which affects my internal subconscious, includes valuing what Christ preached. The Bible describes His words as "Spirit and truth" and I belief I have received His Holy Spirit, accepted it - which is where my internal feeling will differ.

capsium · 03/04/2015 13:43

I have appalled some people in the past, but do not appall most people, thankfully, head.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:44

There are lots of good things in my life

How do you know these things are good?

I love to root for the underdog too! A vulnerable person would most likely be less able to protect themselves from harm which would be taken into consideration in a decision making exercise, you're always trying to make the best decision with the best information you have that is likely to create the best outcome.

headinhands · 03/04/2015 13:50

moral goodness might cause a variety of different actions being taken

So you have no way of judging someone who murders a prostitute if god told them to, regardless of the country they are in.

As for respectfully declining, how are you to know that god isn't happy with that law? In that country god might be quite happy with men beating and raping their wives, you would have no right to complain.

capsium · 03/04/2015 14:00

head depends what you mean by judge. I wouldn't feel qualified to condemn anyone. I don't view the killing of prostitutes as right either. Jesus forgave. I might be called to make a decision regarding what should be done with someone who committed a crime. Whether I think it is without doubt they committed the crime. But I would view sentencing in terms of preventing the same situation happening again, rather than punishment.

capsium · 03/04/2015 14:03

How do you know these things are good?

I just know. Internal subconscious sense again. I look for good to and meditate on why it is good too, but sometimes words aren't enough.Smile

headinhands · 03/04/2015 14:10

I just know

Really, you can't say why? Like friends making you laugh and supporting you through hard times, or children to cuddle because cuddling is nice, and looking after people because that makes you feel useful and you love seeing people happy and so on?

My DH is good, he is kind, and gentle and cares about people, he works hard to understand people, he is funny and supportive. But you're saying I can't actually call those things good because there might be a time/place where caring and supporting isn't good?