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Original poster

Religion is good because it gives the believer an objective and absolute standard of morality

638 replies

Vivacia · 25/03/2015 18:33

(This idea was introduced in another thread, but it felt like an unfair tangent for that thread to be taking in my humble opinion, but one I'd be interested in discussing).

Firstly, I absolutely disagree with the statement.

Secondly, I feel as an atheist I have an objective morality, if not an absolute one.

OP posts:
headinhands · 01/04/2015 19:33

at the right point in history

remember god wanted Abraham to sacrifice Isaac while getting a bee in his bonnet about child sacrifice elsewhere. And the verses where he fantasies about making people eat their own children, that was all good at that point? This god, he's very constrained the time in history. I wonder if he realised the difficulty he would cause by having wildly different morals.

capsium · 01/04/2015 19:48

I don't have the answers to all the questions but you cannot escape the fact that the Bible was written in different times by people who, although inspired by God and encountered God, retold their experiences in their own way, using their own language. We have to appreciate the narrative in its cultural historical context.

And the Bible account shows that God did not require Isaac to be sacrificed but Abraham showed he was as equally devoted to God, as those who did sacrifice their children to other gods. So Isaac not being sacrificed was not due to a rebellion or less devotion on Abraham's part. Maybe this manifestation / realisation of faith was important?

headinhands · 02/04/2015 09:31

God did not require Isaac to be sacrificed but Abraham showed he was as equally devoted to God, as those who did sacrifice their children to other gods.

What? But you said earlier that god thought the Amalekites needed wiping out because they were killing their children. So god threw a wobbly about how disgusting that is, and then decided that even though he hated it enough to kill entire nations, he might like to pretend to Moses that he did like it. And he was chuffed that Moses unquestioningly went along with it? See Moses obviously knew god despised people killing their children, and he didn't question it. See this all sounds like the dynamics of a very messed up and abusive relationship. Especially the bit where he gets angry about something he harbours a desire for himself. Would you kill your child if god ordered you to. Would you refuse?

headinhands · 02/04/2015 09:34

I can only imagine the lasting mental health issues that this little game would have bestowed on Isaac.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 09:41

We have to appreciate the narrative in its cultural historical context

You only plead context when it's something disgusting, you don't appear to try to reinterpret the nice stuff. Like when reading verses about love you don't say 'well, it means' like', you have to think about what life was like then, and nowadays that word means like as in the way you like your neighbour who you see 2 times a month on the drive."

I don't think I actually allowed myself to think about it starkly when I was a believer, I think when you're inside it it must be difficult to approach it as you would anything else.

I don't understand how you can decide god is a good god when good means anything god wants at that point.

capsium · 02/04/2015 09:47

I didn't post regarding the Amakelites, head. And as I have said I don't have all the answers. My love of Christ, who I see as the embodiment of God is enough to make me not hate God, as you seem to be trying to persuade me to do. Regarding Abraham, we know since the account, God does not require us to sacrifice our children, so I don't believe God would require this.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 09:52

hate god

If the god of the OT was real he wouldn't be getting Christmas cards off me. I'm just trying to see how you match the notion of loving god to OT, even the NT where Jesus is racist. I'm trying to work out where your attempts to justify start and end and how you shut off your own moral ideals to accept it.

capsium · 02/04/2015 09:56

The thing that I am curious about head is that you must see how our knowledge of genetics and socialisation is not sufficient to overcome human's immorality? More knowledge can just give more opportunity to corrupt. So where do you place your hope, if goodness can only be seen as something internal within individual people (even if within a collective)?

headinhands · 02/04/2015 09:59

Sorry, my mistake, I thought it was you who justified the killing of babies as a way of iradicating infanticide. SO how do you justify god ordering the stabbing of babies? What was god's logic?

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:02

In answer to your question, humility, head. I realise my own limitations. I believe morality is complex. Rules are not enough. Understanding deepens over time and I just have to exercise patience. Added to this I believe in God, I believe He is good, this belief is powerful, it gives me peace and hope.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:03

God does not require us to sacrifice our children, so I don't believe God would require this.

And Abraham (keep getting him confused with Moses) would have thought the same, only he went along with it, which is VERY scary. You actually have no reason to say god wouldn't require that because he has chopped and changed so much in the bible. You are using your 21st century morals to say that, not the bible. Don't worry Caps, I know you would never hurt your dc.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:06

if goodness can only be seen as something internal within individual people (even if within a collective)?

We've already established how what god considers good can change over time so I do not know how you can feel that he is some kind of eternal measurement of goodness.

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:13

Eternal measurement of goodness? Well for a start I believe goodness is non quantifiable. However eternal would suggest it is only and always good. If you try and imagine goodness as a force, it could be a certain unchanging force that affects matter differently, that is , it manifests in diverse ways, according to context in linear time.

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:14

Eternal measurement of goodness? Well for a start I believe goodness is non quantifiable. However eternal would suggest it is only and always good. If you try and imagine goodness as a force, it could be a certain unchanging force that affects matter differently, that is , it manifests in diverse ways, according to context in linear time.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:14

our knowledge of genetics and socialisation is not sufficient to overcome human's immorality?

I think we're improving slowly as a species, the fossil record shows that we killed each-other a lot more when you look back in our history, even more on average than when you tot up the lives lost in all the wars/conflict in the last 200 years. We're eradicated some horrid diseases. We're becoming more tolerant, people of the same sex can marry, this was unthinkable 50 years ago. We're more honest about our mental health, an issue that was a massive taboo not too long ago. We have a HUGE way to go, but if we carry on learning from the past we have a good chance of going in the right direction.

Immorality, it can mean different things, can you give me a list of immoral behaviour?

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:16

goodness is non quantifiable.

So when you keep saying god is good that doesn't actually mean anything in any meaningful way. Is evil non quantifiable?

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:18

How do you know Abraham would have felt the same? Other competing societies practised child sacrifice - to other gods, perhaps it was a genuine consideration at the time? How did those other people justify this? Why did their morality differ from ours?

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:19

So how do you quantify good and evil? What scoreing system do you have head? How do you measure?

keepitsimple0 · 02/04/2015 10:22

So how do you quantify good and evil? What scoreing system do you have head? How do you measure?

how do you do it if god is capable of such horrible things? Clearly he can't be the yardstick. And neither can christ, as he also had some bad moral stances (on slavery for example).

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:23

Hatred of living beings is immoral head and actions stemming from it.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:23

So using that model of good being anything it wants to be you actually have no reason to say god will not ask you to sacrifice your child do you. You have a conflict between your good and god's good, with yours being shaped on 21st century norms and values. And a religion that expects you to deactivate that system seems to go against what we feel it means to be moral.

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:31

I do have reason, to know the nature of God,as I come to know God better head. There is also subconscious understanding, although, I remain conscious, not a Zombie, my religion does not require me to deactivate anything. If an action seemed deeply wrong to me, I would not do it. Even if I do not immediately comprehend anything, that I read about God, in the Bible, I can continue to seek Him without compromising anything of my own.

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:35

Ah, so god wasn't opposed to child sacrifice then, only when they were sacrificed to other gods though

Jeremiah chapter 32 v 35They built the high places of Baal qin the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Funny how it didn't enter god's mind that they would do it, what with him knowing everything.

So it was jealousy that motivated him to be angry about babies being sacrificed, because people were doing it to other gods and not him?

headinhands · 02/04/2015 10:40

Hatred of living beings is immoral head and actions stemming from it.

Luke 14:26 NASB

If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters… he cannot be My disciple.

capsium · 02/04/2015 10:44

God did not require the sacrifice of Isaac, head .