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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Dawkins - God Delusion....

228 replies

squidette · 30/10/2006 17:30

Hi

I am half way through reading Richard Dawkins new book, The God Delusion, and loving it. I am finding myself laughing and smiling in that 'phew! someone else thinks the same thing!' kind of way that i had when reading Russell's Why i am not a Christian lectures.

I was wondering if anyone else has read it and what their thoughts were.

OP posts:
speedymama · 31/10/2006 20:59

I have not read most of the thread but I remember Dawkins 3 part documentary and thought that he focused too much on the nutty fundamentalists in the religions that he perused. However, it was a refreshing programme in that it challenged spiritual doctrine.

I have thought about this for a number of years and imho, I actually think there is less contradiction between science and theology.

The first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed but it can be interconverted. Genesis begins with the creation of the earth but the question scientists ask is "what was it created from if the first law of thermodynamics is true?" A study of the Aramaic text reveals that the translation to the word creation is misleading because the Aramaic word (I can't remember what it is) actually means reorganised. If that is true, then the first law of thermodynamics actually provides scientific validity for the creation story.

On the topic of evolution, in 2 Peter 3:8, it reads

"But don't forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day".

What is time? It is a human invention to designate the passage of time - on earth. Hebrew word for "day" is yom; yom is "frequently put for time in general, or for a long time, a whole period under consideration. Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens." In Genesis 4:3 yom is used as a framework for time; in Genesis 30:14 it refers to wheat harvest time; in Joshua 24:7 it refers to a long season; and in Isaiah 4:2 it refers to a future era. Also,there was no "day" or "night" during the first three days of creation, because there was no sun until the fourth day, and God did not separate day from night until that time. Therefore, how can one apply the concept of a twenty-four hour day to the creation of the universe?

Science has proven that plants and animals (remember that man is an animal) have evolved over the centuries.

What about dinosaurs? Nobody knows for sure why dinosaurs disappeared, but they do know that dinosaurs died out about 65 million years ago. The first hominids (human-like primates) did not appear until 3.6 million years ago. Even if scientists are off a few million years or so, early man simply did not live during the same period in history as dinosaurs.

Modern scientist now refer to the "Theory of Evolution" as "punctuated evolution", meaning that there appear to be starts and stops in the "evolutionary process". Scientists cannot currently explain these starts and stops in evolution, nor have they found the "missing link" between apes and humans. Does this then suggests that something that cannot be explained by science has been at work since the time when the universe began? I personally believe that to be the case and it is probably God. Who or what is God is another question all together.

I just want to add that I don't particularly believe in religion but I do attend CofE from time to time when I need spiritual fulfillment.

texasrose · 31/10/2006 21:00

Yes but i can't remember them ATM!

DominiConnor · 31/10/2006 21:29

Of course, it's easy to mock Bible Porn like the
Left Behind Series

But from an objective position, it's hard to separate "reasonable" religion from the loony sort. All sort of poeple draw lines of the form that it's fine if a public figure believes God talks to him personally, but wishes to deny that right to Scientologists who believe in spaceships.

Pruni · 31/10/2006 21:38

Message withdrawn

texasrose · 31/10/2006 21:38

Yes, I know DC. I read the first few Left Behind books when they were v. much in vogue five years ago or so. (Then I decided they were not quite kosher IYKWIM!)

It's hard enough for those of us who are believers to sort the good bits from the rubbish, let alone people who have little or no experience of faith. That's why I'm not content to let other people or institutions do my thinking for me (whilst I am more than happy to be part of the church).

Pruni · 31/10/2006 21:46

Message withdrawn

Bibliophile · 31/10/2006 21:48

What about dinosaurs? Er, what about dinosaurs?

bloss · 31/10/2006 21:59

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 31/10/2006 22:02

Message withdrawn

texasrose · 31/10/2006 22:11

sorry ot be thick, but what is polyandry and why is it ?

Pruni · 31/10/2006 22:15

Message withdrawn

DominiConnor · 01/11/2006 10:09

Actually I learned the punctuated stuff first, so it came as a bit of surprise that anyone had ever thought gradual made any sense. However, it's a model, not a fact.
Actually the "model" bit is a good reason why the dimmer end of Christians don't get what a scientific theory is. It's a collection of things that allows you to make testable predictions.
It's not the same a "truth". Many scientific models are used even though we know them to be wrong. Newtonian physics is wrong in it's assumptions, but is is good enough for Moon landings.
It's enlightening that two big issues with evolution are not picked up by the hard of thinking.
Mendel's work on genetics was critically faked, the results are simply too good to have actually happened.
Darwin didn't know about genetics, and was explicitly racist. He admitted a hole in his theory was that if a white bloke was washed up on on island inhabited by black people, his natural superiority would be diluted away over generations. Wrong in so many ways...
Yet they don't pick up on this, because if they can read, they choose only to read things that agree with them.

Pruni · 01/11/2006 13:52

Message withdrawn

speedymama · 01/11/2006 19:36

Pruni, you misunderstand me about evolution. Just because there is debate about the missing link, does not mean there is no validity to the theory of evolution. I personally believe in the theory of evolution but I do not discount the influence of a higher being. I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive .

texasrose · 01/11/2006 21:52

DC, 'the dimmer end of christians' (me??? surely not!!!) rarely presume to understand the delicate issues of evolution / scientific methodology. I have never met anyone who has converted to christinaty because of a sudden epiphany that Darwin was a racist bigot; equally I have never met a christian who has left the faith because of new advances in scientific understanding of the world.

"There are more tings in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy" (Hamlet, probably mis-quoted!)

texasrose · 01/11/2006 21:53

things, not tings! (unless you're Irish...!0

nearlythree · 01/11/2006 22:01

(texasrose, did you get my CAT? Email playing up as usual...)

Pruni · 02/11/2006 08:23

Message withdrawn

DominiConnor · 02/11/2006 11:01

Pruni I've read a bit of Gould, but I just don't like his writing style.
I'm sorry if you thought I meant you Texasrose, by the "dimmer end of Christians", I meant evolution denyers.
I agree that few people change their position on religion becuase of indivdual facts, but schools in both Britain & America are infested with religious types who vary from well intentioned delusion to obfuscation and simply lying what those fail.

ScummyMummy · 02/11/2006 11:15

I would love to be devoured by birds when dead.

KatherinewheelMCMLXXII · 02/11/2006 11:23

Agree Scummy - or at least, I would prefer that to being eaten by worms.

Pruni · 02/11/2006 15:40

Message withdrawn

KatherinewheelMCMLXXII · 02/11/2006 16:13

Jewellery, I like - imagine 'Oh, I love your earrings!' 'Thanks - they were my Grandma.'

DominiConnor · 03/11/2006 18:19

Fair enough, you're going to be devoured by *something, fire or bacteria.

texasrose · 03/11/2006 20:49

Dh wants his ashes scattered at sea.

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