A not intended to be inflammatory question, bun fighters not welcome

[MrsWinklepicker]

I am an atheist, I didn't choose to be, it's just that fundamentally I believe there is no God. I have been exposed to Christianity but it makes no sense to me the idea of there being a God (in the same way as I guess it makes no sense for Christians the idea of there not being a God).

What I don't understand is that if there is a God (I guess I'm talking about the Christian God) how has he created me as incapable of believing in him? I am not exercising my free will, it's just that given the proven facts, my brain will not take the leap of faith required to believe in God. My point is that it's not a choice, you either believe or you don't. I could go to church every week and join in with prayers etc but it wouldn't change my beliefs. It seems a little unfair if Christianity is correct (or indeed any other religion) and I am excluded!

Can anyone explain this to me?

Well put furry

In the words of George Michael...' you gotta have faith'......and I ain't got it!

'Of course' with reasons more numerous than you can be bothered to list, so why not give just one, then, Marshy?

Rational line of thinking regarding God exists is assuming there is some truth in what people have written in the Bible, other historical accounts and ancient writings. Why would all those people have just invented it all and dedicated their life to it?

If you take all the religious beliefs in the world into account it would suggest people do have an innate capacity for a spiritual life. As to why I chose Christianity personally, this is because I believe in Christ and His teachings.

Mrs Winklepicker, I am a former atheist, now more agnostic. I think it is just as arrogant to say "There is definitely no god" as it is to say "My god is the only true one". Imo the problem is not faith or the existence/non-existence of god, but religion and its dogma, all of which has been created by humans and used to control other humans. For all we know there is a god who couldn't care less if we believe in her or not. But a god who will only let true believers into heaven is a much more compelling idea for controlling others, especially the carrot and stick notion of heaven and hell.

FWIW, after decades of believing that there is no life after death, I had some very personal experiences that convinced me otherwise. There are some things you cannot understand unless you experience them yourself and first hand experience obviously informs what you do/don't believe. If you are happy not believing, I am happy for you - better that than dedicate your life to punishing the infidels! However, it is hard to not believe in something when it is staring you in the face saying, "Pay attention, I am real!"

I'm happy for you in your beliefs and hope that you can feel the same for me In my lack of belief.

With regard to reasons I think furry has been far more eloquent than I could hope to be. Your response to me demurring to be drawn on reasons is a little bit sneery if you don't mind me saying so.

This is beginning to feel like one of those doorstep conversations where I politely close the door so I'm metaphorically doing that now whilst stepping away from the thread and wishing you well.

Oh, I just considered rational thought to require reasons, Marshy in that it is considered to be reasoned / reasonable. So to claim to be rational and not give reasons, seems, to me, puzzling. No sneering involved.

persuaded me that atheism was not intellectually, morally or spiritually satisfying.

I'm not surprised. If you're looking at atheism (by itself) to give you a deep sense of morality and spirituality then you will find it severely lacking. You'd possibly want Humanism, some forms of Buddhism, Unitarianism or similar for that.

But you seem to be saying that because you didn't like the implications of a lack of belief in gods you decided to change your mind. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but that doesn't sound like a rational basis of thought. I don't believe in gods because I've yet to hear any coherent and verifiable evidence that they exist. Sure, it would be very comforting to believe that I'll see my dead family members in heaven and that the wicked will get their comeuppance but that doesn't make me change my mind. Wishful thinking is not a basis for deciding the veracity of a claim.

capsium, I too could give you very obvious rational reasons.

But typically the believers who push and push to hear these reasons, then get all offended and personal when they hear them.

So I won't on this thread, which isn't supposed to be bunfighty. And, generally I don't have religious discussions any more. Not because I'm in any way insecure in my beliefs, but because I simply don't fancy an argument, tears, accusations that I'm being mean, and endless semantic wrangling as though somehow, if only my interlocutor shifts definitions quickly enough, I will suddenly believe that Jesus Christ is the only son of god, who came down, was crucified, buried, rose again and sits at the right hand of the father.

Also, I really am happy for you that you enjoy your beliefs. Unlike you, I've no wish to try to change other people's beliefs. So what would be the point of wasting my Saturday on an argument with you?

Rational line of thinking regarding God exists is assuming there is some truth in what people have written in the Bible, other historical accounts and ancient writings. Why would all those people have just invented it all and dedicated their life to it?

There is some truth in what is written in the Bible. It describes real places (eg Bethlehem, Jerusalem etc), at least some real people, and at least some real events.

But just like all sorts of other mythologies from all sorts of cultures it also includes stories of magic and impossible feats and things that sound extremely unlikely and that, if they really did happen, should have been recorded by others as well.

The Fenian Cycle contains a large number of stories about the exploits of Finn MacCool. These stories were told and re-told for generations. Undoubtedly a significant number of people believed them to be true. Some of them undoubtedly refer to real places. But does that mean that we should, therefore, believe that the Giant's Causeway was constructed by Finn MacCool because he didn't like getting his feet wet?

Just like the stories of the construction of the Giant's Causeway, the Bible contains much that is clearly attempts by primitive societies to explain natural events. The OT in particular is also the story of the emergence of a particular society and its rules, how those rules should be enforced and backed by the fear of punishment by a vengeful god. There is nothing unique about such social control; it's a feature of all sorts of religions. Sometimes those rules are beneficial, sometimes they're benign, sometimes they're divisive and cruel. But it's always been less effective to say "Follow these rules because I say so" than "Follow these rules because, if you don't, you'll spend eternity in hell."

Pausing I questioned the rationality of a claim of 'rational' thinking in which the claimant refused to give reasons. You say you don't want to offend, which I'm thankful for, however it does nothing for the atheist stance that being atheist is the most 'rational' stance to take and in the absence of evidence, one which would be irrational to take at face value.

howard in answer to your question, quite possibly IMO. I believe in the power the spiritual element in our physical lives. Although physical manifestation of the spiritual can be spoken about in purely physical terms, since manifestation, by definition involves a physical event.

To answer the OP in one way, the human brain is very plastic and not a lot of our emotional or intellectual behaviour is hard wired (hence a very long childhood relative to other mammals and also a world dominating ability to be flexible) - discoveries in neuroscience and psychology both continue to demonstrate that almost none of our beliefs and behaviours are intrinsic, the vast majority are learned.

So. I guess it's theoretically possible that the upshot of that is atheism as an unintended consequence, if you believe in god as creator.

I think it's also relevant to point out that just as there is not one type of Christianity, nor one of Islam, not one of Judaism, and so on, there also isn't one form of atheism. I tend towards agnostic atheism ie I don't think it's relevant (don't care) whether there is a god or not since I don't see any situations in life that require a god to explain them. There are other types of atheism, some more militant than others! So some of the questions upthread about rational reasons and deep thinking aren't universally applicable.

Another interesting aspect of this is a "god shaped hole" in the human brain. We are predisposed to look for causality in the world - it helps us to be efficient about thinking. In other words, from a very early age everyone is compiling a list of "if x happens then y usually follows, so if I see x and then y I won't bother about it". Where a cause isn't easy to discern (eg the sun coming up in the morning in pre-astronomically aware societies), it's human nature to look for a reason. God is a good catch all for things that don't have an alternate explanation, evidenced by the fact that all known societies have had some form of deity. We're also complex social animals with a tendency to hierarchy, so an ultimate authority has a natural social appeal.

Lifesentence did you have an NDE? Forgive me if this is too intrusive, but it’s an area I’m interested in. I know it's moving away from the general thrust of the discussion here, but I would be grateful if you could say a little more about your experiences.

Pausing I questioned the rationality of a claim of 'rational' thinking in which the claimant refused to give reasons. You say you don't want to offend, which I'm thankful for, however it does nothing for the atheist stance

Well that's the problem in a nutshell.

Supposing I did want to "do something" for the atheist stance, and proselytise. Every time I did so, some believer would say "oooooh I'm offended", as if that matters. And make a big row out of that.

It's like dealing with someone who keeps asking "Does my bum look big in this?" And if you say "yes", they're offended. If you demur, they have a go at you until you answer.

For them, the only acceptable response is "No it doesn't look big." Well a) why should I be made a liar for their benefit, and b) what does it say about them that they accept an answer obtained by social duress? Do they really think it's my honest belief? Or did they not want honest opinions, just personal validation?

Meanwhile, their bum continues to look big.

No skin off my nose - I really don't care about their bum.

And by my way of thinking just because we understand a lot about the way the world works physically, this does not preclude a spiritual element within the physical event. The spiritual element could be present in the pre and post existent state, acting as as agent which affects physical matter. Immeasurable because to be measurable there has to be physical presence.

And now I'm really not going to engage further. I think it's not helpful to the purpose of this particular thread. And not what I want to spend today on.

Pausing I'm not easily offended. If I was, I wouldn't join in on many of the conversations on this board.

OutwiththeOutCrowd - no, not a nde. Simply a series of dream over a period of several years, the majority of which contained premonitions which proceeded to come true the following day (these were about one a week at their peak for a couple of years). I initially dismissed them as coincidence but the sheer body of evidence convinced me eventually that they must be precognitive dreams, albeit not particularly useful ones. I kept hoping for lottery numbers but alas they never showed up!

Interspersed with these experiences were 3 dreams with messages from dead people (which I initially took to be wishful thinking). The messages were to the effect that life continues after death but cannot be seen by the living and that in the afterlife you can be however you want, ie, young and vigorous. In the third and final dream I was visited by someone just after they died who let me know he was happy to move on as certain things had been sorted. When I woke I cried and knew with certainty the time and cause of his death (and subsequently received a phonecall confirming it).

I was finally convinced that the dreams were real, even those "wishful thinking" message ones. To me, the message was "life goes on" and the purpose of the premonitions was simply to convince me to pay attention to the message. Once I understood that, the dreams stopped.

I do not suggest that anyone else should change their beliefs based on my experience. This was personal to me and it was a slow process. I offer it here simply as an example of how beliefs can change. Now all you hard-nosed atheists are free to raise an eyebrow and assume I am deluded, just as I once would have. ;)

Lifesentence

I really appreciate you coming back on the thread and telling us a bit more.
I have heard it said that dreams are often about unresolved issues and once the issue is 'processed', the related dreams cease to occur.

I'm an atheist (a soft nosed one?!) but I'm trying to keep an open mind about spiritual matters.

OP you say 'given the proven facts' but don't mention what theses facts are which prevent your brain from taking the 'leap of faith' you mention.

One line of inquiry regarding your questions would be to examine whether these 'proven facts' are i) proven and ii) preclude the existence of God.

Another line of enquiry would be to examine what type of thinking is involved when taking a 'leap of faith'.

Hmm... Some very interesting views and experiences.

My problem is that I know my brain cannot make the leap of faith. It is just not wired to do so. I cannot believe in something for which I have not seen or experienced irrefutable evidence. So where does that leave me from a Christian perspective? Locked outside?

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind being locked out of something I don't believe in, but I am struggling to understand how if God does exist, he has made me this way.

It's a good question OP. Hard to answer from personal experience for me as I have believed (with patches 'off') for most of my life, but friends who are Christians now and were atheists report all manner of ways in which they came to faith. A good proportion (including my dad) say that they would have made statements identical to many above - that they swore blind they would never believe in a god, poured scorn on it, were rational thinkers etc etc. In some cases people come to faith through deep thought, as niminy describes, in many cases people come to faith through some kind of experience of God - the case with my (very staunch atheist) dad and another friend who is now a vicar.

I don't think anyone is 'locked out' of belief, but it does seem that some people are more predisposed to belief than others - whether through life experience or through personality. But many of those who are not even able to imagine any kind of faith do take faith up, for whatever reason. Sometimes it's through deciding to be open to the possibility, despite reason, and sometimes God chases people down...

Yes OP I have often wondered the same thing myself, but from the perspective of a believer.
I totally understand that from an atheist POV many aspects of faith appear to be "illogical, unprovable etc etc" and yet billions, including myself, believe.
I have tried to not believe, I have taken on board all the arguments against the existence of God, but still my faith is intact. Why ? I really don t know for sure, but the best explanation I come up with is the parable of the sower i.e. we are all born with a seed of faith and we either ignore it or nurture it.
That is only my opinion and not meant to be a criticism of anyone's beliefs or lack of.

OP can I ask what you do for other decisions for which there is no refutable evidence regarding the outcome?

Deciding upon faith can be similar.IME we have to make decisions, all the time, with no irrefutable evidence, deciding on beliefs is similar. In that there is always going to be an element which involves belief.

Does belief make you feel uncomfatable? Do you have a problem with belief? I am not trying to be controversial, just trying yo get to the bottom of what you find problematic.

OP can I ask what you do for other decisions for which there is no refutable evidence regarding the outcome?

Deciding upon faith can be similar.IME we have to make decisions, all the time, with no irrefutable evidence, deciding on beliefs is similar. In that there is always going to be an element which involves belief.

Does belief make you feel uncomfatable? Do you have a problem with belief? I am not trying to be controversial, just trying yo get to the bottom of what you find problematic.

Mrs Winklepicker, I understand your bewilderment! Believing in God is not a choice in the sense that choosing to have apple pie rather than chocolate pudding for dessert is a choice It seems to me that you are either compelled to believe or you are not. Believing is an involuntary response to your own internal perception of reality.

I am an atheist. I would really quite like to be a theist. Particularly since the passing of a very dear friend a couple of years ago, I find that I am strongly motivated to believe in life after death, and therefore in Christianity or other religions. But I cannot make myself believe.

The viewpoint of Calvinism is that you have either been chosen by God to be one of the elect or you have not. Your good works, bad works or desire to believe – none of that makes any difference. You are either on God’s ‘people predestined to be saved’ list or you are not.

I certainly hope Calvinism is wrong. Show me a human father who decides to make himself known to – and reward - some of his children and not others and I’ll show you a deadbeat Dad!

Sunnyspot has posted that in her opinion there is a seed of belief in all of us but atheists ignore rather than cultivate it. This is certainly a kinder philosophy than Calvinism, but I don’t think I am wilfully ignoring some sort of proto-faith within me. Perhaps I haven’t spotted that seed but I certainly would not consciously spurn it if I came across it.

Capsium reported that she just decided to make the assumption that God exists. Capsium, I wonder if there were some personal experiences, external or internal, that compelled you to do so? It seems to me that there must be some reason for making the assumption – a reason for viewing God’s existence as ‘a truth’ even if irrefutable evidence of such is not available. Did you view the historical evidence for the existence of Jesus as sufficiently compelling in itself or was there some inner experience that augmented it?

I agree with Capsium in her assertion that there is nothing in what is know that precludes the existence of God. I also would add that an absence of God is impossible to prove.
On the other hand, I am in agreement with SoMuchforSubtlety too. I am not convinced that I have come across phenomena that I need to posit God’s existence to explain. The only thing that I can think of that might fall into this category, is the human experience of the numinous, a sense of being part of a larger mysterious reality in a way that is uplifting and awe-inspiring. That sensation exists. Many people have reported it. I have felt it myself.

Some have attempted to explain the experience by identifying it as an evolutionary survival trait or a side effect of such a trait. While I have yet to read a convincing secular rationalisation, and if one were suggested, I’m not sure how it could be investigated or verified, there may be, nevertheless, a scientific explanation - it is too much of a stretch to say incontrovertibly that the phenomenon necessitates the existence of God.

As madhairday said, it does seem to be the case that some people are predisposed towards adopting a religion. I suspect that such a ‘primed’ person would probably become a devout Christian if raised in a Christian community, a devout Muslim if raised in a Muslim community and so on. Age plays a part too. The teenage years are the time for radical conversions on the whole. (There are always exceptions of course.)

So, predisposition, opportunity and age, seem the key factors to me, MrsWinklepicker, that might help you take that leap into faith. But if, you just can’t, and couldn’t even if you wanted to, will yourself into it, I know how you feel!