Judaism

[LoafersOrLouboutins]

I'm expecting my 3rd DC with my DP, who is Jewish. I'm not Jewish but being a Jew is very important to DP, he attended a Jewish school, lives in a Jewish community and regularly visits Israel etc. I know he would like our DC to be raised Jewish but I'm not sure whether he/she will be considered Jewish as I'm not? Also, just how important is conversion? Would a rabbi be understanding of me being pregnant and unmarried? I should ask me DP this but he doesn't seem to have the answers, only that he wants DC to attend Shabbat dinners and have childhood memories of Israel. Many thanks

He doesn't sound very Jewish himself if he has a relationship with someone out of the religion and doesn't know the answers to your questions?

Is he attached to a synagogue? This is where he will find answers. Certainly possible to raise children with a knowledge of their Jewish heritage, festivals etc. Not quite the same as stopping all work for Shabbat on a Friday evening, being circumcised and keeping kosher. Do you have boys? Why on earth is this only coming up with dc3 though? And what about you, have you religious beliefs of your own? Does he want you to convert?

What do his family think?

I don't think he's attached to a synagogue as such- he had his bar mitzvah at a synagogue which is local to his parents but he has never mentioned going regularly. This is our first DC together, I have 2DDs from my previous marriage and this is DP's first DC. I possibly should have posted this in relationships but I haven't met his parents yet, I'm meeting them next month, as we are former colleagues and I'm pregnant from a VERY brief fling but we have decided to be 'official' due to the pregnancy. I hadn't even thought of circumcision if DC is a boy I suppose I will agree to him being circumcised if so. I don't have any religious views, my parents aren't at all religious and I didn't attend a faith school. I know DP would like a Jewish wedding but has not outright said he wants me to convert. Sorry if that was a ramble!

It sounds like you are in quite an early stage of your relationship, despite the pregnancy, so I think the important thing is to be clear what you want and don't want and don't let yourself be railroaded into things because he has a faith and you don't.

For instance, circumcision - read up on it. Seriously. It's not something that a child can later 'opt out of', it's a permanent change to an important part of their anatomy. And many men would much prefer that it had not been done to them without their consent for any reason other than medical necessity.

As far as conversion goes, do you actually want to be Jewish? If not, then don't. You can raise your child to be aware of his father's faith without joining it. If things are 'culturally important' to him, like Shabbat dinner and visiting Israel, then that's one thing. But it doesn't sound as though he is very active in his faith, from what you have said - if he was, then he would be able to tell you about it! So, his cultural identity doens't automatically trump yours, even if his comes with a 'faith' label.

Unless you decide to raise your son as an observant Jew, I wouldn't circumcise. It's too drastic a step just to 'put him in touch' with his Jewish heritage. If he later decides to follow the Jewish faith, he can make his own 'arrangements' for that particular part of the faith.

And unless you feel that you can actually believe in and follow the tenants of the Jewish faith, you shouldn't convert. Although Judaism has many rich cultural traditions it is, above all, a religious faith. I don't believe that someone should profess any faith unless they really believe what it stands for.

I agree that this relationship you are in is very new, and based on a pregnancy rather than true love or affection. I'd tread very carefully as far as making any irrevocable decisions.

As far as 'who is a Jew' it depends.

www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

Ah that makes a lot more sense to me, I thought you'd had two dcs already so it seemed you hadn't found out that much about him! If he is still very much politically or through his heritage Jewish, even if not particularly observant in religious terms (I'm not explaining that well but I don't think Jewish people view being Jewish as something like being Catholic, that you could give up) be prepared for him being appalled if you don't want a boy circumcised, it is part of the whole covenant between God and the Jewish people so very important to them.

Judaism goes through the mother, so ur dc wouldn't be Jewish. Re conversion, there are a few diff ways to go about it, the only officially real way accepted by all Jews is orthodox conversion..although there are 'easier' ways out such as reform conversion, which strictly speaking doesn't actually make u Jewish, although many people would like to argue with that. If ur dps not religious, I'd personally recommend keeping him happy with the 'spirit' of the religion. There's nothing stopping u having family Shabbat meals and trips to Israel without converting..

LoL - by orthodox standards the child wouldn't be Jewish, but more liberal groups would probably be more inclusive. Circumcision is quite important even for them, as they take into account whether a child is being raised Jewish. If he does want to get involved with the Jewish part of his heritage later, he will feel a bit of an outsider if he has not had a brit.

I do not see what visiting Israel has to do with it tbh.
and no your children would not be Jewish unless you convert.

Surely the children can convert themselves, even if their mother does not.

no they cannot because Judaism is passed through the mother, every time.Therefore they cannot be brought up as Jewish. I am surprised the husband does not realise that.

My DP is Jewish. His exW converted to Judaism (her father but not her mother was Jewish) before marriage and my two DSSs both did their BM. If we wanted DD to be Jewish, the Liberal Synagogue in Paris (where DP's family goes) would welcome her with open arms but otherwise the doors of French Judaism are closed to her.

Sunny I don't understand that as it would mean the mother also couldn't convert as her mother hadn't... Etc. it must be possible for an individual to convert without their mother having done so first. Is the issue that a child is considered as unable to convert?

Orthodox Judaism holds that a child must be born to a Jewish mother to be a Jew (matrilineal descent). Reform and Liberal congregations also recognize converts and children born to a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother as Jewish.

Brandysnapper - I think you're right. Orthodox Judaism wouldn't generally allow a child to convert without the mother (unless, eg, they were being brought up by a single father), and even a minor did convert, they would be entitled to renounce the conversion at 12/13.

Thank you, everybody! DP and I are going to have a 'serious talk' about all of this tonight with regard to how we will celebrate different festivals and holidays. I think it's fair to say DP is more culturally and politically Jewish so the DC will probably have more knowledge of of this than religious practises. I didn't know children has the option to convert! Would this take place around the same times as their bar/bat mitzvah?

LOL - converting is a big thing, and something that shouldn't be done in haste. At my fairly orthodox shul, there are a few children of non-Jewish mothers - they join in the children's services, and no-one bats an eyelid. their fathers sound much like your DH - culturally Jewish but not especially religious. I'm pretty sure the kids have had a brit, and attitudes would be different if they hadn't. If they wanted to have a bar mitzvah they would need to convert or go to a Reform or Liberal synagogue.

Sorry, LOL - I meant DP, of course.

Your kid won't be Jewish because you aren't, and it is transmitted through the mother. Unless you convert (which is not a five-minute task)

As noted no-one will be turned away from services, but your child will probably not be eligible for a bar/bat mitzvah without conversion; certainly not with the Orthodox lot. If it is a boy, you also know what that entails.

this sounds a very new situation. Please please don't do anything irrevocable, i.e circumcising a boy because of it. Let him/her make his/her own decisions when they are much, much older.

LoL - I think specialsubject is mistaken, because by having a brit of some sort you are showing some wish to identify with the Jewish people, even if he is not Jewish under orthodox rules. For more liberal groups it would also be a sign that he is being brought up with at least some identification with the faith. SS's idea of him taking a view when he is older is never likely to work, because he won't identify or be identified as Jewish.

An orthodox conversion takes around 5-7 years and is not to be undertaken lightly

You can be culturally jewish ie Friday night dinner, observe festivals and so on

To attend a jewish school most work on a points system which you have to accumulate through synagogue attendance etc. some schools need a jewish marriage certificate and certainly within orthodoxy without this and other things your child couldn't have a bar or bat mitzvah

I would look at masorti/reform or liberal Judaism and find a friendly rabbi to have a chat with and with your DP

And what about your other children? This will all potentially impact on them

trouble is, sam, that this 'wish' involves cutting a bit off him and it won't be his choice.

he CAN convert when he is older if he wants, and get the job done himself by his own choice. It is hard work to get into Judaism but it can be done.

BTW I KNOW. . As may you.

and it is also hard work to get out...