Bible study: Book of Job

[niminypiminy]

Inspired by a discussion elsewhere on MN, I thought I would ask is there anybody who'd like to do a Bible study thread on the Book of Job? I thought we could do it chapter by chapter.

All would be welcome -- Christians, Jews, Muslims and people of any other faith, and those of none.

Innerstrength There is also a Christian prayer thread on the board, so if you feel you want to 'talk' about your trials we can support you in thought and prayer. I can pray for you anyway and commit you and your trials to the Lord, as he knows exactly what you are going through and has promised to go through whatever it is with you. "I will never leave you, nor forsake you" Hebrews 13:5

Thank you very very much for that. I will also look at the prayer thread. The bit of Job that is particularly relevant to me is the quote about the lord giving, but then taking away. I don't know what I have done to deserve this but trying very hard to keep faith.

innerstrength I think one of the messages of Job is that sometimes bad things happen to good people who do not deserve it. And we won't always understand why they happen. God never explained himself to Job and he never really knew why these things happened to him. (I know jumping ahead in the book) but when Job met God he seemed to stop wanting to question him even though God did not at that time promise to make things better for Job.

Hullo, I would like to try and join. Like you, inner strength I am going through a horrible time. I am quite new to faith and this horribleness has raised a lot of questions. But I still feel that God has not gone from me, even though I am now not sure who this God is or what the point is of praying to him. Anyway, maybe God led me to this thread. I have very little free time, but will try to read and join in tomorrow.

innerstrength and Lillieshill I'm sorry to hear you are having such a hard time. I too will pray for you. As Dutchoma says, God knows what you are going through and will never leave you. 'For thus says the Lord God: I myself will search for my sheep, and will seek them out ... I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured and I will strengthen the weak' (Ezekiel 34.11-16).

Job is a book for hard times. It is one I turn to when I want to cry 'why, God, why? why does it all have to be so bloody hard?'

Just going back briefly to the first chapter one thing I noticed reading it again is how rich Job is he's a man who's got everything. The verse from Ezekiel I just quoted ends 'but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with justice.' Does this mean that God is on the side of the weak and the oppressed, those who have nothing not those with everything? Is Satan's purpose to show Job that all his worldly goods, all his camels and cattle and wives and sons, he didn't get them because he was especially good and said his prayers every day?

I've been reading today about South American priests who found Christ among the poor and outcast of the barrios and favelas. Perhaps that's why I've just noticed how rich Job was!

What do you understand by "The Lord gave and The Lord has taken away, Blessed be the Name of The Lord"? It says that Satan is the orchestrator behind what happens to Job so what does this mean?

In v9 Satan asks God 'Does Job fear you for nothing?'. I think he is saying, "so, God, you've given Job everything he could possibly want in this life, his only worry is his children, but apart from that he has everything. I bet that his faith is only for the comfortable times when everything is going well. But if he loses everything, I bet he will lose his faith and start to curse you instead of bless you."

So God takes the challenge. Everything is taken away from Job. And Job rises to the challenge. Instead of cursing God he blesses (thanks) God. Everything comes from God, God is good in the good times, he is good in the bad times. Blessed is the name this normally means the nature, the being of God. Even though he has lost all his worldly goods, he knows what he knows, that God is faithful to his people.

QofF for me it's about God giving us everything we have and we should be thankful for that. He can in theory take it away (though I don't think he would without very good reason) but we should trust that he's always there for us through the good and the bad.

Niminy re God being there for the weak, I don't think it's so much that God isn't there for the wealthy. Just that we should strive to use any wealth we may have for the good of others and not use it for ourselves. Perhaps also that we may recognise and appreciate God's greatness more when we are less focused on worldly possessions.

innerstrength and lillieshill I'm sorry to hear you're both going through a difficult time right now. I pray that God gives you his peaceful and comforting presence as well as the strength to get back to a good place. Hopefully this thread will help you both.

The other verses people have shared have been really helpful to read. Thank you for sharing.

That's it niminy. Satan is trying to show that people's 'goodness' is only good as long as they are blessed/well off/happy or whatever, and is 'challenging' God to show that Job will fall down - Job being the best example of 'good' that can be shown in a human being at the time. God, for whatever reason, needs to take this challenge - as much for the sake of Job as to score any celestial points. It's very hard to get our head round - it can seem arbitrary, unfair even. But read as a cautionary tale, maybe not so much?

The OT view was that people were rewarded and blessed according to what they have done, how righteous they are. The wicked are punished by bad fortune, the good rewarded with blessing and prosperity. This book completely turns this idea on its head - this is the most righteous man, after all, and should surely prove the whole 'prosperity comes to those who do good' concept - but here's Job, stripped of absolutely everything, broken and bleeding. His friends try to blame him, say he must be at fault - but I'm skipping ahead, let's wait until we come to those parts!

Job saying 'blessed be the name of the Lord' in this context has always struck me, again and again. Wow - if anyone had the right to rant, rail and accuse God, it was him. But he praised God anyway. And it's my experience that when we praise God anyway we somehow find ourselves in a different place, a place of hope and peace, in the midst of the chaos and brokenness. It's hard to praise God in these times, impossible sometimes, and it's not the sort of praise which is all happy, but more of a sacrificial whisper to God 'bless your name anyway. I am so broken, but I praise you.' Saying it has an amazing power - we don't even have to 'feel' it.

It always reminds me of this song:

madhairday I've not heard that song before, but it's really lovely!

Hello. Another Job fan here - I'd love to join in, if I may.

When I read this chapter, I always think of Selwyn Hughes (successful evangelist/author of Every Day with Jesus) first whose wife and then his two adult sons all died separately. Up to that point, very successful in his life, he must have felt as Job did, when he apparently lost everything - except his faith in God. (I remember reading that after the death of his second son, he physically clutched his Bible to him - nothing else was left - and hung onto that, and to the name 'Jesus' - the only word he could say.)

I always try to hang onto the thought that praise is something that the psalmist chose to do "I will praise the Lord" - praising is an act of will, something we can tell ourselves to do, even when we feel least like doing it, and especially in very dark times. I'm not sure that I am ever as eloquent as Job was in his despair.

Totally agree with what has been said about praising God in the bad times and the effect that can have. But still not clear re when Job says "the Lord takes away" - it wasn't God who took away albeit he permitted it to happen?am I being too literal here ? Or missing the point? This is my first study of Job so both scenarios are likely....Sorry to bang on but I really want to get it clear in my head. I guess what I am asking is - for reasons we don't necessarily understand does God cause bad things to happen or does he let them happen?

QofF the way I understand it is God doesn't make bad things happen but he allows us freewill and freewill leads to bad things happening. Also he allows nature to run it's course, so when people die unexpectedly, that's a product of nature rather than God specifically causing it. So yes i suppose you could say God let's these things happen by not specifically interfering but I don't for one moment think he deliberately causes them.

For me when Job says "the Lord takes away" it's more about a human understanding. we cannot understand suffering and at times it can feel like it is God taking things away. I do think though that God is a God of love and he doesn't deliberately cause us harm, rather that he comforts us and lifts us up during those moments of trouble.

I'm sure others would disagree with my view point though.

I think it is just to do with seeing the bigger picture; ie He may well take something away, and we will not understand why, but maybe we will much much later when we look back and see what happened next. It's part of His plan. That is the thought I am hanging on to.

I also think that Job was not aware of the satanic influence on his lot. He only reckoned with God, just as God thought he would do. And of course there is no way in which God would not 'take away' even though what happened to Job and to Selwyn Hughes is out of the 'ordinary' taking away. The whole subject of suffering is huge and there is not one sensible Christian who doesn't struggle with it.

No one so far has laid the connection between Job and Jesus who, of course, suffered most of all and was good beyond all measure.

Was it God who caused that suffering? That may be a different question but must be asked throughout the reading of Job.

Actually, as part of the horrible struggle and pain I am currently in, I just googled bible quotes to find patience, and was led to James 5, which mentions Job:

"You have heard of Job's patience, and you know how the Lord provided for him in the end. For the Lord is full of mercy and compassion."

Faith that is pretty much the same as I think. So much to think about and we are only on Chapter 1...

That sounds like a pretty good cue to go on to Chapter 2!

Job Chapter 2

A poster raised the issue of whether this is a story with a meaning or a literal account. I think of it as a story with a meaning. Rather a lot of people have died so far in this story. I don't think God would have allowed them to die to make a point. Not quite sure what the point is so far, but then I cam only on chapter one..
My mother in law died this year of cancer. The minister at her funeral said that Christianity does not have an answer as to why these things happen, but what Christians do have is hope. I think that is quite an honest statement .

Ps, thanks everyone for your prayers and kind words up thread.

One thing I have taken from this is that knowing Job's heart God would have thought he would pass Satan's test. So God wanted to prove to Satan he was wrong about good men. In chapter 2 they talk about Job holding on to his integrity in the face of great troubles. This reminded me of St Paul's writing in Ephesians 6 10:18 about putting on the armour of God when facing evil "and having done all, to Stand"
In facing the force of evil (that we call Satan) with great integrity Job was able to overcome evil, and this had the effect of weakening the power of the force of evil in the world.

Livelablove the reason I think this must not be literal is that in Job a lot of people die. Surely God would not have caused all those people to die to prove a point to Satan. This is a subject close to my heart as there have been a lot of deaths and serious illness of those close to me recently, including the death of a baby in utero. I cannot believe God would cause all those deaths to test me, even if sometimes it feels like that. But on a literal reading of Job as a true story that is a possibility.

lillieshill it sounds like you've had a pretty awful time lately. Keeping you in my prayers.

The bit that sticks out for me in chapter 2 is this: "Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?” And also about Job's friends just sitting with him and not saying anything. I think sometimes we can feel the need to say or do something when someone is suffering and underestimate the power of just simply sitting and being with someone. In terms of God, I think we can expect him to do something in our times of trouble but actually it's helpful to know he's just there with us and to feel his comforting presence.

Hi Lilly I certainly think you may be right about this, however this story does look at the question of why God allows terrible suffering and how to cope with it. There is something too simplistic in the answer that it is a test of character or whatever. Later in the story when Job questions God He does not say anything about it being a test or trial, He does not give any reasons. So that makes it seem that it was something more than a simple test, there was a reason behind it that is something only God can know.

Faithloveandgrace that part about them just sitting with him is very moving I think. When someone is in trouble they do want that comfort and understanding, and not (as they did later) being given a lot of "helpful" advice.