We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

I think it is generally accepted,and a quick Google supports this,that the laws of our land are pretty much enshrined on Christians principles. What a surprise that so many people from other countries that lack the basic understanding that all people are created equal of equal worth, are queueing up to try and get to our country to live. Whilst I agree that Christians should not have automatic rights to positions of influence,it needs to be understood that Christians were pretty much the driving force behind education,healthcare,law,science,the arts,music etc in this country. Now less people are professing to be Christians,I see that has to change to be representative but these things can take time. I truly believe that much of what is great and admired about our culture is due to its Christian foundation.

vdbfamily don't you think it was a bit unfair of god to not make them Christian too?

After all if you had been born in the middle east you would now be almost certainly a devout Muslim. You wouldn't know it was wrong - how could you?

It seems a mean trick to play on people.

Have you ever told a lie?

It's not really relevant - just my curiosity, but can you recall where it says that is a sin?

It is a foolish mistake to imagine that civil and criminal law is based on religious rules.

In fact, humans are social animals, and, like other animals have strong genetic programming to prevent them murdering each other, killing babies and children etc.

They have also learned that is is for the benefit of the community to proscribe theft, bearing false witness, etc.

The religious rules simply codified whatever was thought to be good practice in the communities and at the time the authors lived. Some of them are harmful or unnecessary in modern northern Europe. For example it is not now considered good practice to seize people from neighbouring nations and make them your slaves, nor is it necessary to make laws prohibiting eating pork and other animals, nor to mutilate the genitals of babies and children.

Piglet John, I think you will find that Jesus said that circumcision was no longer necessary,that Pork was fine and I think you will also find that Christians were the driving force behind the abolition of slavery.

Backonlybriefly Christianity began in the Middle East and was one of its major religions from 1st-7th century ad and the arab muslim conquests. There would be far more Christians in the Middle East today if they were not being slaughtered or forced to leave on a daily basis.

One of the 10 commandments is 'do not bear false witness' (don't lie)

My point is that community norms were in place prior to religious rules, which simply write down what was to the authors good practice because it was what they were used to.

Places outside the Middle East had laws long before Jewish religion and its offshoots reached them.

vdb - while Christianity is undoubtedly one of the major influences on British culture, there are many others too. The idea of democracy doesn't arise from Christianity for a start. Our legal system has been influenced by Roman and Scandinavian traditions - I'm not sure there's much distinctively 'christian' about it. The christian church stopped scientific progress in its tracks in the West for centuries.

I think you will also find that Christians were the driving force behind the abolition of slavery.

There were various factors - here are some of them. While some christians were indeed among the abolitionists, some used it as a justification for it, and were against abolition.

As Hitchens pointed out it makes no sense to believe the Jews had no rules before the 10 commandments. They would have been unable to make such a journey to the mount without adequate norms and values.

" Christians were the driving force behind the abolition of slavery."

Well, Christian people were. In a time when the vast majority of British and American people identified as Christian.

There is Biblical justification for slavery too.

I am still interested in hearing about Bible based laws and atheism based laws.

Foundation of current British law such as Magna Carta ,Confirmatio Cartarum and the Bill of Rights all acknowledge God's existence.England is acknowledged to be a nation 'under God' and when law making,Biblical teachings could not be contradicted.

I guess that has changed considerably in the last few decades in a way that probably most atheists would thoroughly agree with.The European convention on human Rights is a humanist law and has been used on numerous occasions to overule actions based on Christian teachings.Blasphemy law,sunday trading,abortion law,divorce law,tax law (that no longer promotes marriage)gambling law,obscence publications etc etc. All areas of law that have been rewritten or created to remove any overtly Christian basis.
And as I list them,I can see that for a humanist or atheist,most of these changes would be seen as progress in the right direction but for most people 'of faith' they would be seen to be eroding long held principles. I say 'people of faith' because for many moral issues many of the worlds major religions agree in principle with each other.

Hakluyt:
Perhaps you'd be better off posing that question to your atheist friends.
Looking back, it seems to start with BigDorrit saying yesterday at 13:22: "the christian God is treated differently in this country because of the privileges his worshippers demand and expect".

It was BackOnlyBriefly who said at 14:22 "all we want is equality under the law" and later BigDorrit came back and repeated this at 14:35 saying: "what we want is for everyone to be treated equally by law"

I then responded at 14:33 saying: "...It's hypocritical because you want to see Christians silenced and your world view favoured. You want atheist based laws in and bible based laws out...."

So, like I said, ask the atheists what they mean when they speak of 'special privileges in this country', because it's clear their axe to grind with the bible is that they perceive he law to state the opposite to their preferences?

BackOnlyBriefly, I am surprised you need to ask because although the verses you've (mis)quoted thus far demonstrate your serious misinterpretation of what you're reading in the bible, the fact that lies are a sin is a continuous theme throughout the bible in both old and New Testament. You surely can't have missed it?

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV
There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Proverbs 19:9 ESV
A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will perish.

Proverbs 12:22 ESV
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

Colossians 3:9-10 ESV
Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.

Psalm 101:7 ESV
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.

Ephesians 4:25 ESV
Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth...

John 8:44 ESV
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Exodus 20:16 ESV
“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

Matthew 15:18-20 ESV
But what comes out of the from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.

Psalm 109:2 ESV
For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues.

Leviticus 19:11
“You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another.

Revelation 21:7-8 ESV
The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Leviticus 6:1-7 ESV
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “If anyone sins and commits a breach of faith against the Lord by deceiving his neighbor in a matter of deposit or security, or through robbery, or if he has oppressed his neighbor or has found something lost and lied about it, swearing falsely—in any of all the things that people do and sin thereby— if he has sinned and has realized his guilt and will restore what he took by robbery or what he got by oppression or the deposit that was committed to him or the lost thing that he found or anything about which he has sworn falsely, he shall restore it in full and shall add a fifth to it, and give it to him to whom it belongs on the day he realizes his guilt.

Psalm 34:13 ESV /
keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit.

1 Timothy 1:9-11 ESV
Understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for ...(list of sins)... liars

I don't need to ask "my atheist friends" what is meant by Christian privilege. To name a few. There are 25 bishops in the House of Lords there solely because of their faith who ensure that a Christian point of view is always brought to law and policy making. Which can have undue influence, particularly in health and social policy- think end of life care, stem cell research.... Christians expect the right to be exempt from equality legislation that applies to everyone else. Christians have access to more schools than non Christians and Christian worship is mandatory in all state schools. Enough to be going on with?

May I give a personal example?

In my first job, aged 19, I was bullied by a group of my colleagues, all in their 30s and 40s, for my religious faith. This took the form of public haranguing, mockery and verbal abuse at break time over a whole year, on multiple occasions. I don't remember exactly what they said, and they certainly weren't interested in a genuine debate - just point scoring and outright abuse. I do remember how it made me feel - absolutely awful.

I'm socially liberal - pro choice, pro LGBT issues, etc - and I still have a faith. I have really good friends who are Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, "spiritual", agnostic and atheist (from Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu backgrounds, tolerant and intolerant).

I have never, ever been verbally abused for my faith by anyone other than atheists.

That was horrible, panda- completely unacceptable and I hope your employer took it seriously. How did you know they were atheists, by the way?

Hak, I knew by what they said (spaghetti monster, imaginary friend, etc etc), and their bullying was all directed at my religious faith, well, the fact that I believed in anything at all.

I was 19 and the youngest and least experienced person in the outfit (classical orchestra) and thought I had no choice but to take it on the chin. And it was before bullying and even sexual harassment in the workplace were even recognised by law as problems. It wasn't even that long ago, 20 years.

Hakaluyt:
You mentioned stem cell research among your so called inequalities because the christian point of view is, in your view, always brought to law and policy making, which you believe can have undue influence in health and social policy.

Well as a mother consider this; your daughter, the one you consider to be both intelligent and attractive (no doubt like her mother ), was once a foetus. Had she been one of the unlucky aborted foetuses used for stem cell research she would not exist today. You would not have recently sent her to university and be enjoying every little contact she affords you, so you can rest assured in her wellbeing during her time away from those who love her the most.

She is, and always was, a very precious life, right from the start, even before you met her. Not everyone agrees that aborting a foetus is aborting just a bunch of random cells.

Now, just because not everyone agrees with your viewpoint doesn't mean they all deserve to be silenced. And by the way, this isn't me opening up an abortion vs pro-life debate, there are plenty out there on Mumsnet I'm sure that you could go to if you wanted to. I have no interest in getting into all of that here on this thread. However, I mention it only because it links to your point about stem cell research which is a moral minefield as it involves ending an innocent life, and my point is that the only reason you want to get rid of the "christian point of view" in such policy making is so you can silence the alternative viewpoint to your own.

AFAIK, abortions are not carried out for the purpose of harvesting stem cells.

Do you suggest that they are?

vdbfamily false witness against your neighbour isn't the same thing as lying and if you give it a moment's thought you will realise it.

ARainyDaySun found a list of other places where the bible shows disapproval for lying. And quite right too. I can logically demonstrate that lying is a bad idea. You don't need a god for that.

But the reason I asked is that most Christians think it's one of the commandments. I was taught that as a child too and I don't even come from an especially religious background so I can't blame you.

But it just goes to show that the beliefs are mostly about repeating what you were taught like multiplication tables.

That goes for the idea that Jesus changed the rules too. If they were parking regulations that's one thing. When god said cuttings bits off of children is compulsory and that slavery, rape and murder were good things he was 'according to Christians' entitled because he decided what was right and wrong. But when Jesus told you to stop doing those things that made no sense. Do you really think it's ok for something to be evil one day and good the next?

And no you can't blame human progress unless you want to admit that it was humans not god making the rules. God wouldn't be learning to be more moral as he went along would he?

There would be far more Christians in the Middle East today if they were not being slaughtered or forced to leave on a daily basis.

Was that a response to me saying that you would mostly likely be Muslim if you lived there and doomed to hell because you didn't know you were following the wrong one? If so you sidestepped it.

Woah there ARainyDay!

Are you suggesting that foetuses are aborted for the sole purpose of stem cell research? I do hope you're not.

And actually, I would have been so very pleased if the two much loved and longed for foetuses I miscarried could have been used to help save other children.......

And no,I do not want to silence the Christian voice. I just do not want it to carry more weight than any other voice.

Well, actually, RainyDay, plenty of religious people, Christians included, have no problem AT ALL with stem cell research. Or abortion. So it's a red herring.

That is completely outrageous, Panda, and I don' think there is anyone who would say differently. What very odd people they must have been. How did they know you were a person of faith?

At least you must have been spared the spaghetti monster- he wasn't around 20 years ago.

PigletJohn:
Most modern stem cell research is laboratory based and thereby artificial creation of life. However, it's still an indisputable life, try telling otherwise to a mother of a successful IVF baby!

Also, in recent years not all research has avoided aborted foetuses as seen in this www.bionews.org.uk/page_91385.asp , however most, like I said, are laboratory based creation and killing of life.

BackOnlyBriefly:
It's good to research it yourself, I thoroughly recommend that. I also intensely dislike people just blindly accepting what they're told.

However, it's hard to be a false witness without lying isn't it? Looking at the verses I gave you, the two descriptions "false witness" and "lies" are very much linked, so yes, the 10 commandment for bearing false witness does mean to lie!

If you look the two words up you'll see false means "not true, not correct, misleading and dishonest", and the same is said for a lie dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie?s=t