We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

Presumably you've read it?

Hak, you asked me "Do you think that you treated that OP with consideration and courtesy?"

Yes I read the thread, but I didn't post on it. I didn't treat that OP with respect/contempt or anything else. I didn't post on the thread, I didn't even know of it's existence until you mentioned it.

I am glad that you understand my questions and you find them neither difficult or problematic. I look forward to reading your answers.

As you well know, that was a typo. My question was "do you think that I treated the OP on that thread with consideration and courtesy?"

No Hak, I don't "well know". I took your post as it was written, I have no ability to read minds. Similarly, I have no intention of imagining what you meant by your posts. I think it would preferable that you answer these questions without my input, but I will be happy to give you my opinion (should you ask for it) once you have answered yourself.

I'm aware that we are on a new page of this thread now. Do you want me to remind you what the questions were?

different people have different notions of what "consideration and courtesy" (is)

That's true enough. For instance, some may mistake formal politeness for courtesy.

"Do you want me to remind you what the questions were?"

Yes please.

Do you think it's ok to not treat people with courtesy and consideration because they hold different beliefs to you?

Do you think that you treated the OP on that thread (the one you referred to earlier where the link was removed) with courtesy and consideration?

No I don't.
Yes I do.

It seems to me that you like conflict and and walk about almost asking people to challenge you for been an atheist. I struggle to see how you can then complain when people do. Why are you so pre-occupied with religion if you are an atheist? I don't talk about my religion or sometimes lack of, and I know people from pretty much all the main stream/organised religions and many fringe and not recognised ones and atheists. Religion just never comes up in conversation. Maybe that is because I choose to know these people because they are not walking about sparring for a fight about there beliefs.
You should try it. Then maybe you won't have people being rude about your atheism.

I never go up to someone on the street who happens to be wearing a religious symbol and criticise their religion and/or morals. However some religious people do criticise me for not believing what they do.
They tell me that I and my children will burn in hell (the details of the suffering vary according to which story they prefer) for not joining their club and they go over my head and tell the school to teach my children that their religion is the one true one.
They tell the government to pass laws to stop me disagreeing with them.
They demand the right to ignore the law and treat people badly because they are gay, unmarried or belong to the 'wrong' religion and they demand respect because it's their religion and often claim that disagreeing with them is racist.

Not every religious person does all of those things, but far too many seem to agree that the ones who do deserve some extra respect and consideration simply because they picked a story to believe in. Most encourage by example the notion that if you make something up and then believe it then it is true.

I only challenge religion when it is a matter of public debate. That means I will post here and other forums, post on newspaper comments sections, speak out at protests and political meetings.

"Athiest beliefs" ah yes like tall short things or empty full things.

"it seems to be asked when the holder of that belief feels that their belief is being actively disrespected."

Not so. It's mostly used when the holder of the belief gets angry that people are disagreeing with them (or worse with almighty god) and often when it looks like they might not get their own way in all things.

"Why are you so pre-occupied with religion if you are an atheist?"

That's a good one.

If the church stopped poking iits nose into my affairs I would be happy to ignore it.

For me, as an ex Christian I'm still working through the whys and wherefores of my journey and I like discussing it and seeing how believers make it fit. I can also see the wider issue of the encroachment of religion on non-religious activities.

headinhands - your journey sounds challenging and I am sure gives you great oppoortunity to consider wider circumstances.

My niece is in a similar circumstance, now an adult, married and almost finished her pHD in Psychology, she was brought up in a christian ( Baptist) home. She started to question her beliefs several years ago and is now atheist.

head- what were the circumstances leading you to faith initially? How was the journey to non-faith?

My niece has found it a painful and difficult journey, even though she made the intellectual leap to non belief she found it very difficult emotionally.

Hi combust, school assemblies and Sunday school. I had a difficult childhood and was looking for comfort. The cognitive dissonance started to become more problematic about 8 years ago, I spent several years just suspended in terms of belief and probably not wanting to grapple it. I only have one relative who is a Christian but they're also into psychics and so on so don't think she's really taking it seriously, she believes a bit of everything but you know I can remember the benefit of faith and the comfort of thinking god was in control. Now when people tell me god blessed them with a new car etc I think 'meanwhile...'

Backonly

I see were you are coming from, and if in your daily life you are having to deal with these sorts of people. I understand how it is not right that in politics your views are used against you.

I read a former-atheist article yesterday which interested me greatly. The author described a-theists as wanting to argue against God, in the desperate hope that they can prove He doesn't exist. Then they can do whatever they want and not feel bad about it, or so they hope.

Only she said it doesn't actually work that way, instead, there is the elephant in the corner lurking all the time. A niggling unrest in the spirit, a knowledge that there is more to life than 'nothing'.

Another article read that atheists are usually angry at God on a personal level. Perhaps something in their life happened that "shouldn't have", or wasn't fair, or hurt very badly, and God is to blame. So they shake the fist in anger and say "He doesn't exist".

A different author said he sees it as God doesn't give up on the atheist and continues to give little reminders that He is always there, whether they like it or not. And they don't like it because they feel uncomfortable, a bit like having a light shone into the darkest dirtiest parts of our house that you're not proud of and would rather hide from.

All of these authors shared the same view that atheists spending a lot of time arguing against God is ironic, because most of us don't believe in Father Christmas but also don't rage against people who do (or who indoctrinate their children to try and persuade them that he is true!), but that God is treated differently because there is no one like Him.

Perhaps when an artist is most unsettled and uncomfortable they will take issue with Christians or the bible, or public worship and prayer. But underneath it all is their argument with God himself, for whatever their personal reason for that.

ARainyDay that's a lot of misunderstandings to fit in one post.

You say you don't believe in Santa. Try to imagine someone telling you that you did really and were just miffed you hadn't got enough presents. You'd laugh at them right?

As for wanting life to be more than 'nothing', it already is. Life is full of wonders. I know that some people have been taught that an atheists life is cold and bleak, but that's not the case. I can see that the garden is beautiful without imagining there must be fairies at the bottom of it.

Personally I think that the wonders of science and discovery are more exciting than being told that things happen because god told them to.

If you read these threads properly you will find a number of reasons why atheists argue about god. Most of them quite practical things like Christians demanding the right to piss on gay people cos they god said that was ok.

We have to get involved because the religious bigots won't leave us in peace.

Santa is less of a problem that way. Though I have noticed that some parents who went a bit overboard with the Santa story then complained that their DC cried when they found out the truth. Personally I always treated it as a shared game that we all knew was a game. No trauma then when it comes out.

Oh and I bet there are lots of gods you don't believe in right? What are you? Christian? Do you believe Hanuman the monkey god is real or is that some childish thing made up by ignorant savages?

But backonlybriefly, if an atheist felt upset at anyone treating them badly because they are homosexual, that would surely be an atheist feeling bad about the actions of certain people? If an atheist had the security that the bible names many sins and that telling lies or being proud are also named sins, both apparently being what are commonly referred to as the seven deadly sins, then they will that anyone treating them cruelly isn't following God properly. The could sit with confidence knowing that God says there isn't a single person who hadn't broken His law in at least one place. We all know it's more than that obviously.

The thing about Santa is that I wouldn't laugh at someone if they told me they believed in him still. I would feel sorry for them because they're likely to find out Santa isn't real one day, and I might try to explore what makes them believe that; but certainly without mocking them. I choose to live differently and actually treat it exactly as you described; a bit of fun that we all know isn't really real. I want my kids to be able to trust my word to that level but I accept other people see it differently and goose to tell their kids the harmless little white lie as they call it.

that would surely be an atheist feeling bad about the actions of certain people?

Oh yes. It's not god doing it. It's people trained by generations of religious people that are doing it. That's why it's important that as few as possible are tricked into thinking there's such a thing as god.

Sometimes I will speak of god being evil (his behaviour as described as throughout the bible is) but it's a figure of speech. Usually countering someone who like yourself speaks as though morals come from god.

Even if god existed and even if he were moral the religions as actually practised include much that is quite vile. If you live in the UK you must be aware of the demands by some Christian churches that they be allowed to discriminate against gay people (this is just one example of the nastiness, not the whole story)

btw the "no proper Christian would do that' is called the 'No True Scotsman" fallacy

You didn't say how you feel about other people's gods. Are they equal to yours?

So it's somehow ok to say that atheists are atheists because the are angry with god and will come to their senses soon because they really do know fat God's real but are in denial....., , but not OK to say that theists are theists because they can't face reality and need an imaginary crutch to support them through life.................

Rainyday

The article you read was very foolish.

Why should anyone have the idea of shaking their fist at a non-existent unicorn?

Oh dear...

BackOnlyBriefly: discriminate in what way? I can bet you if you read the book yourself you won't find any instructions to be hypocritically unkind to fellow-sinners.

I'm on my phone so once I click to reply I have to go by my memory to try and answer your questions! You said something about a monkey god, I've never heard of that. But I do seem to recall the 10 commandments say "have no other Gods" and "no graven images" before instructing anything else, which does throw the other idols out of the window. However I still don't go round threads mocking people for believing it.

Hakluyt, you said something about "coming to their senses soon" and atheists being in denial. I didn't say that, did I?

Sometimes people criticise people who believe in God as needing a crutch, you probably heard that off someone else before using it yourself. I find it mildly amusing to see the irony there. Do people really think it's not a little bit hypocritical to judge a Christian for needing God (as a crutch) when we all have a crutch of some sort, be it wine, or drugs, or close friends, or mindfulness, or music, or a long walk in the country, or a nice hot bath, or sex... whatever does it for you, really! I've used probably most of these, as well as the "peace that passes all understanding", and to my often annoyance it's the latter that really gets to the bones of it. The former are just band-aids.