We're always being told we should respect other people's beliefs, but....

[Hakluyt]

.....what exactly does "respect" mean in this context? I am an atheist, and I am always happy to be challenged on my lack of belief, and am frequently told that I must have no moral compass and that I have to put up and shut up when Christianity imposes itself on me. I have also been told that I must have no sense of wonder- and, on on particularly memorable occasion, that I couldn't possibly have any charitable impulses!

But if I say anything even remotely "challenging" about faith or people of faith,bi am accused of disrespect. So, what exactly does respecting other people's beliefs mean?

It's generally the case that rational believers understand the irrationality of their beliefs.

It seems to me that terms like 'sky fairy' are never helpful - they are just meh for rational believers, and anyone who's been on these threads knows that they generate more heat than light with others. If you know something acts as a 'button' then really it's best avoided unless you want derailment. IME the metaphors created specifically for the purpose - Russell's Teapot or the Invisible Pink Unicorn - work better. (though I know they're a bit different because no-one has ever actually believed in them)

Very well put TheFallenMadonna and I agree.

I don't think I find atheism very difficult to comprehend, really. Because I am generally a reflective person I think about the nature of faith and the nature of no faith. I am not one to think of atheism as a belief, simply as a perfectly rational absence of belief in the light of what is perceived as no evidence for what others believe. It makes a lot of sense to me, and I'd be right there with you if it wasn't for all these awkward experiences of and encounters with God, those things that make faith unquantifiable and irrational

I'm very meh about sky fairies, pink unicorns, celestial teapots or anything of that nature. They don't make me stop and think about my foolish beliefs, because they don't mean anything to me in the light of my experience of a God who loves passionately and changes stuff and changes me again and again.

"They don't make me stop and think about my foolish beliefs,"

But I am not intending you to. I don't care what other people belive so long as it doesn't impact on me. I am interested in other people's beliefs, obviously- but I do feel the need to explain why I am not prepared to give - for example- Christians- special privileges in society. And I suppose that's where the fairy/ celestial teapot thing comes in. Would you be prepared to give 25 people automatic seats in the House of Lords because they believed in fairies? No? Well, that's how I feel about there being Christian bishops there.

Hak, what were the circumstances the last time someone IRL asked you to "respect their beliefs"?

What do you think respect means?

No individual has said that to me in real life. However is often used in public life to shut down conversation. Some Christians expect to be allowed to ignore equality laws that apply to others because of their beliefs. Some Muslims want to be allowed to treat their girl children differently to their boys because of their beliefs. Schools are obliged to follow a Christian agenda to a greater or lesser degree- because of Christian people's beliefs. To name a few. And it is always being used on here.

What does respect mean. Well, to respect a person can mean to treat them with deference. Or it can mean to treat them with consideration and courtesy. I do not know what it means to respect a belief.

So this is something that has only been asked of you on the Internet? Why do you think that is?

I think there is a big difference in respecting someone's beliefs and respecting someone's right to believe them.

For example, if I think that someone's belief is complete rubbish, then that is one thing, but it's not my place to tell them they aren't allowed to believe it.

Dione-please read my post properly.

"For example, if I think that someone's belief is complete rubbish, then that is one thing, but it's not my place to tell them they aren't allowed to believe it."

But what if it is something damaging, or something which affects other people, or which impinges on your life?

It has been used to shut down discussion within my own family. Some time ago my dsis got upset when I asked her to explain why she thought the bird on the feeder outside was a dead relative reincarnated. She stormed out the room after saying I was mocking her. She still talks about her beliefs about such things and I just nod along with non-committal sounds. I don't know wether she has forgotten that I'm thoroughly skeptical or she is trying to convince me, either way her initial tantrum has worked a treat and I daren't engage on any meaningful level.

Engage about the woo that is, other than all that she's really fabulous.

this is interesting....

Quite a link Hakluyt.

"It's generally the case that rational believers understand the irrationality of their beliefs".

I don't think that's even remotely true. I have personally never once heard any believer not attempt to rationalise their beliefs. No one knowingly believes something that they know is irrational - they wouldn't be able to understand what they thought they were believing if that was the case.

And if telling other atheists what metaphors to use because one is more "helpful" than the other, then what's the point of the discussion at all? Too many people telling too many others what they should be saying - that's the root of the problem, and this is no better.

Respect - I've come across many believers who accept that faith is by definition irrational.

I didn't mean to sound as if I was telling anyone what to do, apologies if it sounded that way - merely a suggestion that some terms serve essentially the same purpose but don't seem to have the same inevitable derailing effect as others. Surely anyone who's participated in a few P/R/S thread will have noticed the 'button' effect of 'sky fairy' - so unless you actually want to press it I don't see the point of using it if you're interested in debate. Maybe there is some reason eluding me?

I've tried relentlessly to rationalise my belief. To myself of course. I don't indulge in public soul searching much. I've come to accept it as part of my irrational self, as I recognise other things about me also to be irrational. But it's always nice to be told how I think.

I don't ask for privilege. I agree that bishops should not have seats in the House of Lords. I choose not to send my children to a faith school because I disagree both with selection and also with state funded religious education. I think there should be no religious influence in state education at all. If the "respect" referred to by the OP is then about respecting privilege, then no, I'm not for that either...

The request to respect belief is not exclusive to religions. It has been used on MN wrt feminist beliefs, Athiest beliefs, vegetarian and vegan beliefs and it seems to be asked when the holder of that belief feels that their belief is being actively disrespected. Our beliefs can be integral to our sense of self, therefore if the belief is being disrespected, the holder of that belief feels they are being disrespected.

Hak, do you think that it's ok to not treat people with consideration and courtesy because they have different beliefs to you? On the thread you mentioned, it was clear that the OP belonged to a branch of Christianity that was not CofE, so no HofL seats. I didn't see anything to suggest that they had their own state schools. And they don't seek converts, so no impact on your life. Do you think that you treated that OP with consideration and courtesy?

"Do you think that you treated that OP with consideration and courtesy?"

Do you think I didn't?

Hak different people have different notions of what "consideration and courtesy", so my opinion on your posts is immaterial. Judging purely on your own personal standards, do you think that you treated that poster with consideration and courtesy?

Do you think it's ok to not treat people with consideration and courtesy, just because they have different beliefs than you?

Do you think it old be the way that you're saying it?

Usually if someone is accused of lacking respect in their challenge it's because they're rude or trampling over other people by, for example, being quite cutting or sarcastic.

Can you think of a particular context to give an example? A kind of "I said then they said" blow-by-blow account. It might be easier to answer your OP.

I know you mentioned something about women menstruating but it was only clear that you didn't like it rather than clear how you could be accused of being disrespectful.

You do realise that the"we' in the OP was a collective "we" don't you? I'm not actually asking for etiquette tips. Dione- what is the purpose of your question?

Well. I try to treat everyone with respect but I can't promise not to be disdainful of their beliefs if I believe that those beliefs are patently nonsense.

I assume that the "We" in the title refers to you and other people. I'm not offering etiquette tips Hak, or advice. I'm asking the question because I would like to know the answer. Are you finding the questions problematic or difficult to answer?

Not at all difficult or problematic. But I would like you to answer my question- Do you think that you treated that OP with consideration and courtesy?
?

I didn't post on the thread.