Please help explain (Christian) prayer to me...

[Wigeon]

I'd really like to understand more about Christian prayer. I have never quite understood how Christians see it, but a recent email from a friend has provoked lots of questions.

The friend, an evangelical Christian who goes to a free church, was recently admitted to hospital. The doctors first thought she might have some kind of cancer, but have now said they think it's TB. We have been emailing, and she said that lots of people have been praying for her, and she feels that the fact that it's 'only' TB and not cancer is prayers answered.

This makes be me wonder:

What if it had been cancer, despite all the people praying? Were they just not praying enough? What would she and her Christian friends think if she did have cancer? She is a very good person, in her 30s, with three young children, so this leads quite quickly into questions of why a good God lets bad things happen to good people, which I think is probably a whole nother thread...

What do people pray for? Do they pray that it won't be cancer? If they do, does this suggest that God intervenes in individual humans' lives? Why would he do that, and what about people who don't pray, who still sometimes have good things come out of bad situations?

I'm not quite sure how praying helped. Either it was cancer all along, or it was TB, regardless of the timing of her diagnosis. Why pray?

What about people who don't have people praying for them, or who aren't Christian? What if I was in the exact same situation? Surely non-religious people have illness as much as religious people? Does it matter that far fewer people would pray for me if I was ill (because I'm not part of a large supportive church)?

I am genuinely curious and hope no one is offended by my asking. I find it a very hard part of Christianity to understand. Any thoughts?

Bump?

I don't think prayers get answered in that way. She's got TB because she's got TB not because of divine intervention.

I don't believe in an interventionist god. For me prayer is about praying for strength, getting closer to God, a meditative aspect to it (prayer reduces blood pressure, keeps you calm etc).

In essence I pray to calm the noisy aspects of myself so that I can hear my essential self of which God is part, talking.

Others have different views. It's one church, one god but loads of views

I am a Christian and I also find it very hard to understand ... Also don't have time for a really well thought out answer, but didn't want to leave you bumping with no response!

Prayer is not a magic wand and doesn't guarantee anyone preferential treatment. I think any Christian that claims otherwise is naive. There is a child in my church group who is certain she was healed of cancer because lots of people prayed for her. But her mum is equally concerned about the other children in the ward who weren't healed. It's not as simple as God intervening only in the lives of those who ask ...

But I still pray for people to be healed and there are times when such miraculous things happen that I can't help but see it as "answered prayer". There are also times when someone isn't healed, but other stuff happens that makes me feel that things are somehow under control. Many people have told me that they have taken huge comfort and strength from the knowledge people are praying for them, even if it doesn't "work" in terms of an immediate reversal of a bad situation. Perhaps they find resources that they never knew they had.

I also know for certain that my day always goes better when I've taken some time to pray through it in the morning. It's partly a process of getting my head in the right place. Maybe it also opens my eyes to the things that God is doing and makes me more ready to see the positive in stuff, even when life is tough. I dunno - I don't have the answers - just enough good experiences to think it's worth doing.

Wigeon I don't think I can answer you as you have asked quite a number of questions so my answer could become thesis like! So I suppose I can talk more generally about Christian prayer. I am a Catholic, we believe prayer is a gift from God and our response to God. Prayer takes many forms but the one that many people seem familiar with is "intercessory prayer" which is asking God for something in particular or someone. However, I would describe more of my prayer as contemplation or adoration - being in the presence of God and gazing with the soul or the "heart" - which in Catholic theology represents the innermost essence of ourselves - upon the reality of God. So prayer is grace working within us and our response to that grace where we grow in relationship with God. Like any other love relationship the more we give and spend time listening to, talking to and being in the presence of the other the more the relationship deepens. We also see Mass as the ultimate prayer as we believe Jesus is truly physically present body, blood, soul and divinity at communion so we also believe we physically consume God. Wild but that is what leads to the very deep prayer tradition in the church.

Thank you so much for thoughtful answers. I think I can definitely start to understand the meditative type of prayer, praying for strength and the ability to cope with a difficult situation. If you are not religious, you might interpret that as people who think things through and believe in themselves / their ability to cope, are better able to cope than those who don't...

AChicken - yes, your example about the child with cancer who was healed is exactly what I am talking about. What about the non-religious children on the ward? Or what if the child who was prayed for hadn't been cured? I don't at all think that my friend thinks that only Christians are healed because they pray, but the randomness of it all really confuses me, and the fact that whatever happens, Christians still seem to believe in prayer - if you are healed (or good comes out of something bad), then that's prayers answered, but if you aren't healed, or bad things keep happening despite prayer, then God is still in control.

Lookingforfocus - I imagine an evangelical free Church person might pray in a different way to a Catholic? Although some of what you say I think would resonate with my friend too, particularly about grace and identifying your inner self and its relationship with God.

I'm an occasional church-goer. I waver between belief and non-belief.

I have also prayed, and prayed very hard. Not because (even when I'm in a believing phase) I thought that it would help the person I was praying for. But because it was something positive that I could do, at a time when I was completely helpless.

Sometimes people think about prayer as a coin in a slot machine: you put the prayer in and out pops the whatever-you-wanted. Didn't get it? Maybe you didn't pray hard enough. God takes the shape of a cosmic Santa Claus with a giant sack out of which he gives...or doesn't, of course. Many a bicycle has been prayed for and not received. (Or maybe it was received and then what was the point of the prayer?)

I don't think it works that way. Prayer is not so much about 'getting' something, not even about 'giving' something, it is about a relationship with God, the Supreme Power of the universe. Prayer then becomes a sharing of concerns, like you would do with your own dad (if he is a goodun of course), telling Him that you love Him and trust His judgments. Your friend will know that you care about her, with a bit of luck she will already be in the same place and have her own relationship with her heavenly Father.

But Dutch sometimes it's not a child asking for a bike but a child asking not to be raped by their stepdad again, which is a fair request to make of a loving god. And he says 'no, I'm not stopping it.'

I get that many Christians don't see prayer about asking for stuff but Jesus very much peddled a 'ask god for practical stuff' type of prayer so this 'prayer is just about meditation' is sheer Christian apologetics and purely making excuses for why it blatantly doesn't work.

I think you are now moving into the realm of a theological discussion of sin (lack of love). I don't think that will go very far however because if there is one thing that makes a contemporary person furious it is sin. No one sins anymore now as it is an old fashioned notion.

The one time I've had to pray for something in desperation I was saved though - I don't make anything of that though but nor do I understand it

Yes Jesus said ask for things but the expectation of getting them is something different.

It's moving into a wol different realm. One of God bashing. I don't do that sort of discussion, sorry. I tried to explain something of how I feel about prayer and about God as my heavenly Father and my Friend. That's it.

You call it god bashing but I'm pointing out the obvious gulf between what the NT says and what most Christians here say. That's hardly nit picking and is a very understandable criticism.

Mark 11v24
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Matthew 21v22
If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

'In prayer' is not the same as 'praying' or I'd be sat here asking for a lottery win

'In prayer' is communing with god in reverence, adoration, humility, speaking to him and asking him to help you - it's holy not a shopping list

So the people whose kids died of cancer and so on, they didn't get their prayer answered because they didn't pray right? They should have asked 'in prayer' instead of straight forward praying?

So the whatever bit actually means just feelings and nothing actually practical.

You can't pray 'right' - it's not a magic trick to master

People die because people die. IMO praying affects how you deal with it - I know my miscarriages were easier to deal with in prayer.

I didn't pray for the foetuses/babies to live, that wouldn't occur to me because I don't believe in an interventionist god - instead I prayed for strength and told god I wanted a baby.

He told me I couldn't have one and sent me on a different path. Communing with god in prayer helped me understand that - of course it wasn't easy.

So if you prayed for strength, would god not have given it to you had you not asked? What about the people who don't get the strength to go through difficult times even after praying? Your non-interventionist god fits in with reality but not the bible.

"Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up,"

James somewhere.

Why would god let that bit make it into the final cut of the bible if it isn't true?

It is true, it just doesn't mean raise him up so he's doing the tango round the room

It probably means raise him emotionally. For all I know it means restore him to heaven to be with god.

You are taking the bible literally and it's not a literal document.

What it means is through faith, not through understanding English and what they literally mean.

And as for praying for strength, I don't know if god gives it to you without asking - I only know when I focus on praying I feel stronger. It's a personal relationship, not a textbook.

Ah so it's all a metaphor. Is Jesus dying for our sins and eternal life/heaven a metaphor too? How do you know what is to be taken literally and what isn't?

Thank you for further comments, although I'd be grateful if anyone who would like a discussion around 'does prayer work' or 'is there a god' could start a new thread - really I would just like to hear, in a non-judgemental way, from Christians who pray who might help me understand why they do and what they think it achieves.

I know that bigger questions of whether prayer has any point, and what the nature of god is, are important (and I have my own personal views), but please could they be discussed elsewhere and not on this thread!

Love from the Thread Police!

Apols Widgeon.

I think the Lords Prayer is always a good study in prayer, especially as most people can still recite it without looking it up. It is a template for how we should be communicating with God and it puts things in order.It starts of with 'hallowed be thy name' so puts God at the forefront, this communication is about God and worshipping Him, 'thy kingdom come' is asking God to restore his kingdom which has been hijacked by evil, 'thy will be done' is basically saying to God....this is not about what I want,I am trusting that what you want for me is what will happen here.Give us this day our daily bread is requesting our basic needs are met, not big house,expensive holiday but food/clothing/roof over head. Forgive us our sins as we forgive others....about daily checking where we have failed God/others and being sorry and being ready to also forgive those who let us down. 'Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil'...help us do right/give us strength to live Christlike lives.

So, we don't pray to demand things,prayer is conversation with God,and as you get closer to him he is able to communicate to you what his will is for you. Christians have to go through all the same griefs as anyone else but they know that God carries them through and gives them the strength to endure. Today would have been the 17th birthday of a member of my family. He was diagnosed with leukemia when he was 13 and fought it for 3 long years. He was a Christian and had hundreds of Christians praying for him over that some,many for healing. He was an incredible lad who I never heard complain or question 'why me'. The grief experienced by the family when he died was and still is very painful and yet his funeral was the most amazing service I have sat through,with a real sense that ultimately he had received total healing as he was received into heaven.

So when a friend says "my little girl has cancer" and a Christian says "oh that's awful! I will pray for her" that translates as "I'll ask god to make me feel happier about it"

In fact the usual response to "I'll pray for you" is "Thank you".

I've never heard a Christian say "Why are you thanking me? It's not going to make any difference to you. The point is to bring ME closer to god"