Christians - where do you stand on Baptism?

[harrisey]

I've been a christian for 20 years. I was christened as an infant but came to faith myself at the age of 16 adn joined the church at 18. But as I have always gon to churches that do infant baptism, the question about whether i shoud be baptised as a believer never came up. Neither dh or I agree wih infant baptism and our 3 children have not been baptised. But it never seemed to be a big deal.
We have recently moved house and have chosen to go to our local Baptist church - not baecause of their stance on Baptism but because we like the style of worship, the preaching, fantastic ministry team, the childrens work is excellent etc ... I went to the evening service tonight and 3 people were being baptised. It was an amazing service and they said that it was one of the few instructions that Christ gave to his disciples "..go into all the world and make disciples of all nations baptising them in the name ..." etc. And Jesus himself was baptised.
Totally confused. Would fell a bit weird to be dunked after all this time. I dont really feel any 'need' to do it, but it does seem to be an instruction.... It is something that both dh and I have thought about on and off for a number of years.
Have any of you been naptised as an adult? Or chosen not to be for any reason? Just wondered what youthought about it.

Hi, I've been reading your posts on this subject! It's a thorny one for us as a family because having always been members of CofE churches (and both confirmed) dh and I have been attending the local church to where we live, which just happens to be baptist. I'm one of those 'had it all' christians - baptised as a baby, confirmed as ayoung teen, converted to real christianity a few years later and baptised as a believer. Dh was baptised as a baby ansd like me confirmd as a teen. Unlike me his confirmation was for him what it sholud be - a confirmation of the baptimal vows made on his behalf by his believing parents. It's never ever been an issue for us in nearly 10 years of marriage. Until now...because I colud become a member of the Baptist church as I've had a believer's baptism (although it wasn't in a Baptist church) whereas unless dh gets baptised, he can't.

He's been struggling spiritually anyway (life has been hard and unrelenting for the last few years and we've had so much really big stuff to deal with) and the outcome of all this 'you haven't been baptised so you can't become a member of the church' business is that it's made dh feel like a second-class citizen in the church. He's not been allowed to take communion and as the communion is done (? not v. holy word, sorry) at seperate services to the main Sunday ones, I've not either out of solidarity with him. Which, as Anglicans by heart, has hurt us enormously. I understand that the Baptists want to encourage people towards baptism but the effect on my lovely dh is to push him much further away from it, to distance himself emotionally from people at church and the minister in particular, and it's certainly not helped in his spiritual struggles (whi ch I'm sure he'd have had whatever church we are in).

It wasn't until I went to a summer event which involved an Anglican communion that I realised how hurt I'd been by all this and I just sat there wit htears streaming down my cheeks all through the communion service. I was so shaken that I could hardly stand up to go forward for the bread and wine!

It's a bit of a tagent I know, but the thing I want to say is yes adult baptism may be more biblically correct than child baptism but I believe it's possible to be 100% right and 100% wrong at the same time, and when theological niceties are used to divide christians or to deepen divides that are already there, it breaks my heart.

BTW please pray! We are trying to fathom out what to do about this whole church situation. Dh is not going to get baptised so we can never really become members of the baptist church - but it is right at the end of our street and it's the only church in our part of town. Christians here sneer at others who get in cars to drive to churches further away from where they live, but we have been to a bigger church a little way away which is much more laid-back and dh really loves it. We've prayed together for the first time in ages and dh is a lot more alive spiritually. But it feels like a big thing to leave the baptist church. WE've got good friends there and I run the toddlers group. Our friends would be hurt, wouldn't understand and may feel that we just lack faith in God's ability to change dh's heart. But I can't help thinking that's a bit patronising.
What to do la as they say in Singapore???!!!
Please join your prayers to mine that God will soty us out!!

That's such a sad situation texasrose, I will certainly pray. I think you're right, you can be doctrinally spot on and yet absolutely wrong in your application of it. I can see how your local church family want to do the right thing but on the other hand they might just push you both away, mightn't they.

It would be wrong to try to tell you who or what is right or wrong in your situation, as I know so little about you and it, but in terms of what you should do ... well, in general, it seems to me that the reality of church life is that there will come a point where there is either healing, or a parting of the ways. I know God prefers the former but he won't abandon you (or the members of your current church) if the only realistic solution for now is the latter. You just need to strive for healing and see if it's possible, and accept the alternative if healing and reconciliation is not possible for now. God is well used to dealing with fallible human beings and he won't leave you or your hubby. Just make sure that what you do, you do prayerfully, with your eyes and hearts fixed on Him and with His glory in your lives as your motivation.

Thanks, Bobsdad! (Isn't that someone off Bob the Builder - wasn't there some special one when Bob's dad popped up?)
It is hard sometimes to know the right way to go and in all honesty I don't think we've reached the right decision yet. But...dh and I are talking about it and at last coming at it from the same direction (we had a long time when I was trying to integrate him more into the baptist church but in reality it made him feel even more left out because he felt that I fitted in and he didn't). So we are much more united in our 'we don't know what to do' than we were before this all really became apparant. So that's not a bad place to be even if it's not a very comfortable place either!

Bloss and Bobsdad, I think a better way of saying what I believe is that there is one Truth, but it is unknowable. Therefore all our 'truths' are simply the best way for each of us to try to approach that Truth. The one thing I can be certain about my beliefs is that they are wrong, and that all I can do is try to understand my faith to the best of my ability, and live my life accordingly. I cannot say that Bobsdad or anyone else is wrong, only that I believe that what they say is wrong to me and others who believe in a similar vein to myself. I have no problem - as Bloss knows, she's said it to me often enough! - with someone saying that they believe me to be wrong, but no-one can say 'I know you to be wrong'. Of course theologically we will all find people and churches with similar povs. I daresay that you will find those theologians I agree with wrong, too, but nevertheless there are quite a number of us, many of whom feel driven out of our churches.

If I say that the grass is red, feel free to tell me I am wrong. The same doesn't apply to matters of faith, it can't.

Bobsdad, as for your assumtions about m eit is clear that you think I have thought little about my faith (Bloss knows how far this is from the truth, even though she can't understand why I believe what I do). It is also clear that you think I can't disagree with someone, which again isn't true, unless I find what they say offensive. I find it offensive that you described a belief which some hold sincerely about scripture as 'daft'.

It's no secret that I do not believe the Bible to be inviolate. To place the Bible, rather than God, at the centre of my faith would, to me, be idolatory. My understanding of God is that some of the things I am supposed to believe the Bible teaches are incompatible with the way Jesus shows us God wants us to live (although I do not think it 'daft' that others believe otherwise). But it is also clear in my understanding that baptism was an important part of Jesus' ministry, and that he was an associate? follower, even? of John the Baptist. That infant baptism may or may not be an invention of the church doesn't bother me. My baptism was so important for me as a child, let alone as an adult. I can't ever remember a time when I didn't feel the Spirit, didn't know I was loved, and for whatever reason I believe it was because of my baptism that God's love became real for me. It's how God became a presence in my life. I also believe that every time anyone receives any sacrament, God's love is let into the world a little more.

I am not at all sure about the phrase 'believer's baptism' either. I wonder at what age I could have been said to 'believe', at what age would I have been deemed able to make my own choice?

texasrose, what a horrible situation for you. We are lucky that our baptist church offer us love and fellowship in full knowledge that as a family our beliefs are different from thewirs. They recognise infant baptism and confirmation as enough to let my friend and I take communion, although we are not able to become full members of the church without being re-baptised. But to be in a situation where you and your dh are praying together is so wonderful - I firmly believe that what happens at home is more important than what happens at church - and will pray for you both.

Hello n3 ... really, truly, honestly, I have no such preconceptions about you. I couldn't possibly, not after reading a few paragraphs about you on a forum. I've been around forums long enough to have learned not to form such bold ideas of who other members are. I'm trying to get the measure of what you believe - part of that is suggesting things I think you might believe, and seeing what you say in return.

Thank you for describing the beginning of your journey of faith. Testimony is a wonderful thing ... very personal. If I may, here's how it was with me:

I was christened when I was a few months old. My mum took us (I have a brother and a sister) to church, we attended Sunday School, we were all confirmed aged about 12, I became a Sunday School teacher and for a while I was a server altar boy type person as well. I knew all the Bible stories, I knew about Jesus and the cross and all that. If anybody challenged what I believed I would argue for my faith without hesitation.

Then the teenage independence hormones really kicked in. I started to question a lot of stuff, including why I was getting up on a Sunday morning for a God I knew lots about, except for having no proof he wasn't just someone's idea of what might be 'out there' when you die.

It caused a lot of heartache between my mum and myself, partly I suspect because she and I were confirmed together. She called in my dad (they were divorced) for a Proper Chat after one Sunday morning when I refused to get up and go to church with her. He asked me if I believed in God any more and it felt really hard to say 'no', but I don't think that's because I secretly did, I think it's because that many years of learning and being obedient to what your parents say you should do and believe is not easy to just drop on a whim.

They never made me go to church after that but after a couple of years a friend at school who was a member of a house church started to talk to me about Jesus. He was the first person I ever heard who talked about him as if he really was a real person. I went to his church with him, listened to the youth leader talking, and over the following months, it really began to click. It felt so, so good to find that it was possible to actually have a relationship with the God I previously had merely known lots about. I felt determined to get to know him as well as I could, as soon as I could. I asked the church to baptise me - which they did - because I longed so hard for that knowledge about God to become a relationship with him.

Not long after my baptism I went to one of those Christian conferences where everyone camps for a week and attends meetings in a big top. I knew that at that point, I still did not have the Spirit in my heart. I had felt God's direction on my life, especially in taking the step of obedience in getting baptised, but I knew that I was still lacking that permanent, intimate relationship. By the time of the last meeting of the week in the youth tent (I was 17 by this point), I was absolutely desperate for God. I had the idea that only a conference like this was a spiritual enough place for someone to have a real meeting with God! I know that's daft now (I'm quite capable of believing daft things) but it was all I could think of at the time. I think God was happy to let me stew because it meant, when I responded to the altar call that night, that I reeeeeeally meant it. I think I was the first person on my feet, and the second of those who stood to pray aloud.

The Holy Spirit came into me very powerfully that night. He was a real, tangible presence in my body. He felt like fire, even though I didn't see any! I knew from that moment, without a shadow of a doubt, and I have never doubted since - that I was born again, and am indwelled by Him. I floated around the campsite that night. I looked up at the stars and goggled at the thought that I knew the One who put them there. It was such a powerful experience, I remember it almost blow by blow, 16 years later.

Once upon a time, God was a theoretical thing to me, but not any longer. I know Him and I love Him. I hold His written word in the highest regard, not because it is somehow a deity in its own right, but because I know and love the One who gave it and trust Him that what he has given us is reliable.

Bobsdad, thank you . I enjoyed your post and it is very gracious of you to respond to my post in such a way. I too love hearing testimony, it means so much more than any argument about doctrine or creeds.

I hope to post more on this but need to go to bed as dd2 is off to the paedetrician in the morning and I have an early start!

bobsdad - thanks for sharing your testimony - always powerful - maybe we should start another thread for this?

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bloss, for all I know bobsdad or anyone else may be spot on. It doesn't offend me. What offends me is being told categoriaclly that I am wrong. Believe me to be wrong, fine, but don't state it as fact.

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bloss, you are missing what I am saying. You and I have disagreed often enough to know that I enjoy having my beliefs challenged. If I can't justify them then what are they worth? You or anyone else are entitled to tell me that you believe me to be wrong, as often as you like. But nobody can state as fact that someone is wrong when it comes to matters of faith. Because faith is just that - faith - you just can't 'prove' it, which is one reason why IMO it is so wonderful.

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Bloss, the reason you cannot see the distinction is because you are so sure of you rightness that you cannot comprehend that others may see things differently. And I fail to see how you can claim to speak for 'most' people.

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bloss, I think we are approaching this from totally different perspectives. You see this as a philosophical argument. I know little of philosophy; I draw the distinction I do because I think it the best way to discuss matters of faith with others. It is far more likely a reasoned and respectful (hate that word) discussion will happen if both sides allow for the fact they believe what they do to be right and believe the other to be wrong, than if someone states that they know they are right and that someone else's belief is wrong as fact.

I do not see faith as frail, but it is subjective. I do understand your point about knowledge, and of course much knowledge is subjective too, but faith seems to me to be especially so. The petty tribalism within Christianity drives me nuts and it largely stems from each side 'knowing' their way to be right, an dletting everyone else know it.

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I do think it makes a difference that we can't see each other face-to-face. We can't tell tone of voice. It's hard to gauge how people take what you say, too. I approach it as a debate, but it's a very personal subject too. I haven't been offended myself here particularly in the sense that I feel my beliefs to have been insulted, but I could see how others might (I think MaryBS was upset). Plus, bloss, you and I have been here for - what - four yrs now having these conversations, and I think we feel able to be robust in what we say to each other, whereas I think unless you have become familiar with someone it is best to be more circumspect. I wouldn't simply call it manners either; I think it is more productive to the conversation if one tries not to put other peoples' backs up.

Interesting discussion going on here ... I hope I didn't cause all the havoc

I am definitely in the full-on debate camp. The other forum I frequent is very much like that, not just in religious threads either. I suppose it's just the way I've learned to express myself online.

As you say nearlythree, we do communicate with far more than just text in the real world. Reading someone's argument on a screen rather than seeing and hearing it does mean we run the risk of misunderstanding. That tilt of the head or change in intonation that can convey passion restrained by respect, or contempt unleashed ... even if the words used are the same.

I like a good barney over facts and figures myself. It was bobsmum who suggested replying with my testimony might be a more productive way to add to the discussion than further dissection of theology. I think she was right. She usually is. And she's the regular here after all. All I know of you guys really comes from just reading over her shoulder. I rarely get involved here and I think this thread is the only time I've ever made more than one or two posts!

It's a generalisation, but I do think men and women tend to approach argument, discussion and debate somewhat differently as well.

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Just thought you would like to know that dh and I met with the minister this week adn have decided to be baptised, after CHristmas sometime.
Thanks for all your input!

Wow - Harrisey - that's great!

Our church had a baptism in Loch Lomond a few weeks ago which was a real encouragement.

I'm still in two minds.

I've come to the conclusion that the root of my fear of baptism -and I think that's what it was - is that I really don't like physical contact with people (other than dh and the dc's).

I got quite emotional talking it through with dh. The whole dunking and being vulnerable and people watching etc thing just freaks me out. Then dh said "What if I baptised you?" and it suddenly seemed possible.

aNyway I've got more thinking to do on my motives, but I'm really encouraged that you've decided to go for it.

Our church has just changed it's name from "fellowship" to "baptist church" to avoid any local confusion, so maybe that's another prompt for me!

I don't think you can have it done twice. You've already had it done as a child so surely you've missed your chance to do it again as an adult.

I can, because I was baptised on my parents faith as an infant in the presbyterian church (Church of Scotland) the baptist church I now attend does not recognise this as true baptism as I did not make the decision myself as a believer. They are quite happy to baptise both myself and my husband, also baptised as a baby.

I agree with them - I have not been truly baptised, I did not have my children baptised as I wan tthem to make the decision for themselves when they are old enought to understand. And the fact that my parents turned out in the end not to be Christians at all but social churchgoers does mean that the 'christening' I had as an infant was no more than that, a naming ceramony which welcomed me into the church, but not the true believers baptism which I am now going forward for. But even if my parents had been solid CHristians, I would still be doing this, as it is about me being baptised due to my own faith, not the faith of others.

I'm just hijacking this thread to say hi to Bobsmum and that I've been thinking about you!

I can understand your pooint about physical touch. I think it'd be lovely if your dh baptised you. In Loch Lomond? A bit chilly, no??? (bbbrrrrrrrrrrrr.....)

Harrisey, I don't think God minds. All these rules, they're just man-made after all.