Do you feel it is important to share your views on faith or atheism?

[gingerdodger]

This is a genuine question, I am not asking to promote a faith vs atheism debate as we have plenty of those.

My question is whether people feel that it is part of their faith to share those beliefs with others? How far do you take this and how do you approach it? Similarly for those who are atheist, do you feel it is important to share your opinions and in what ways do you do this?

I know some faith groups see this as absaloutely fundamental to their faith whilst others are more relaxed. I also see that those who do not believe in God(s) also often wish to share their opinions widely. It interests me to think about what this achieves in terms of sharing opinions, understanding of each other etc.

From my point of view I strive to be open about my faith, I like to listen to other's perspectives as this makes me think (providing they are listening, I tend to bow out when it starts to feel adversarial and not inquisitorial). I don't feel compelled to actively knock on doors (metaphorically or otherwise) to share my faith but rather subscribe to the view that I hope my approach to life and openness about faith allows me to discuss my faith openly and honestly. I do believe actions speak louder than words and the best form of 'preaching' is to live Christian values of love (not saying I am good at this).

And it is an issue because the people defending the law believe there should be provision for collective worship in schools, they value collective worship.

I agree Hakluyt- I didn't want to remove my children from assemblies- it would not have been fair.

THe assembly takes roughly this format.

1. Welcome and prayer
2. Class presentation
3. Awards for academic achievement
4. Religious song
5. Birthday celebrations.
6. Prayer
7. Goodbyes and welcomes for new and leaving pupils.
8. More awards for behaviour, being good class members, helpful to others etc.
9. 10 minute sermon from minister

10. Mentions of acheivement for extra curricular activities. 11. Song ( Jesus is my Superhero or equivalent)

Should I have taken my children in and out of assemlies for the religious parts? Or remove them completely from the whole assembly- which is unfair as they like to hear of classmates acheivements or be recognised for their own.

Oh and regarding the teacher training college, no mention was made of collective worship, but I ended up jacking it in after the first year as I couldn't abide being around so many christians.

And there you go again. The needs of Christians take priority. why???

I think it's an issue because it's the law Hak and until the law is changed it provides a simple solution. Your "whole school" argument doesn't work as the law says that people can opt out. Separation of assembly and collective worship means that it is easier to opt out and no child has to leave a room.

You do not want your children to pray, you do not want your children taken out. Prayers before school makes this very easy.

combust did you discuss this with the school, other parents, governors?

IMO the school could organise the collective worship element more sensitively which allowed those, who did not wish to participate in the collective worship element, to still fully participate in the more secular, community element of assemblies. The awards, notices etc would be at the beginning or end, allowing those who did not wish to participate in collective worship to be separate from those worshipping.

If you really are in a minority, regarding your beliefs/lack of beliefs, then you have to make a decision concerning what is the best way to live amongst believers.

I was on the board of Governers. The head would not entertain any discussion about the delivery of his religious program. He was a deeply religious man who favoured other christians when selecting his staff.

I am not in the minority in this country, most people are agnostic atheist or nominal christians, brainwashed into compliance by the religious indoctrination they recieve at school.

Do you think I'm brainwashed combust?

How do you know the beliefs of the country? Church attendance is not necessarily the clearest indicator of actual beliefs, I'm afraid. Some people are Christian in belief but find attending church difficult for a multitude of reasons.

...some people attend church, as non-believers, because they like the community element. Some of the clergy, I have heard, claim to be Agnostic...

combust Don't get me wrong, I have had to deal with stubborn leadership within school in the past and succeeded, for which I thank God for because I, myself, really did not know where to start. I do sympathise. If I were on that board of governors with you I would have supported you to get collective worship better organised and I am a Christian. Perhaps we could have changed things? Who knows?

"Separation of assembly and collective worship means that it is easier to opt out and no child has to leave a room. "

I think that's a very good idea. However I don't think schools will buy it because it does mean getting all the children in and our of the hall twice rather than once.

Try convincing them, if you are passionate, about it Hak. Even though I believe, as I do, I also think schools should be more inclusive and flexible.

Can I ask on last question?

Why do people think it's important that the moment of quiet reflection in assembly should be a Christian prayer?

And it wouldn't necessarily be the whole school if parents knew about opting out of worship and doing this was non discriminatory.

However, as I have said, I still believe in providing collective worship for those that want it.

I don't find it important to share my views or personal philosophy. I find it less and less important to discuss the older I get. Having been raised in a Christian cult, spent nearly 15 years studying comparative philosophies and ethics (particularly Abrahamic) personally, academically, and professionally, I have found it frustrating in the past how little some people know about their own faith - especially in a country with mandatory religious education coming from one without it - but I've mellowing out even with that. I'm also no longer part of any religious or organized philosophical group (mostly because of all the study and research) which may have to do with part of that mellowing.

I do find it a bit odd and sad that one can not choose a secular education in the UK outside of home educating. I do think a good, quality comparative philosophy, ethics, and traditions would do a lot of good (and that is not what the vast majority, if any, get now) particularly with a focus on exploration of those views and traditions, oneself, and understanding others.

I've included the image both because the topic of the age of faiths has come up (Abrahamic faiths are by far not the first and many of the stories within are found in other variants in older texts - showing borrowing among other things. I won't get into the prophecy and value issue because I could be here all day and I have folders and folders of work on it from when this type of thing was really my thing - its obvious enough from my tone that I think any claim of originality or accuracy in prophecy to be bollocks) and just because I think it's interesting and valuable to the topic to see how such things have changed over time.

Hak why is prayer important? It is because collective worship and prayer has significance in Christian belief. It is different from quiet reflection in that a person prays to God and groups of people can pray together in unity.

"Hak why is prayer important? It is because collective worship and prayer has significance in Christian belief. It is different from quiet reflection in that a person prays to God and groups of people can pray together in unity."

Groups of people- apart from the ones excluded from the quiet reflection because they are not Christian. In a state school paid for by taxpayers of all faiths and none.
As I say- Christians have 18 hours a day for prayer and collective worship.

Hak why not just find out how many in the school(s) your DC attend feel as you do and then see if you can get together to do something? I think you'd be much happier to ensue your children are not discriminated against.

You really are attempting to argue with the wrong person here. I really do value collective worship, and collective worship in schools. I am not going to support abolishing it.

^ensure not ensue. Typo.

I don't have primary age children.

But I can't understand how anyone can support something that is blatantly discriminatory.

And I can't understand how Christians can just not care about the sensibilities of others of different faiths or none, and just say "I'm all right, Jack"

Just because my beliefs differ from other people's does not mean I think 'I'm alright Jack'. I will still stand up for what I believe though. Religious tolerance and freedom to worship collectively is important to me.

However I do believe schools should not discriminate against those who don't wish their children to take part in collective worship, under the current legislation there is no need to be discriminatory. I also believe in schools being flexible and inclusive. I am prepared to fight for this and have done in the past, yes, even over issues that do not particularly affect my own DC. IMO not a particularly 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.

But if the worship in schools is exclusively Christian, how is that not discriminatory?

And of course there should be freedom of worship- but should you expect that to mean freedom to worship 24 hours a day in a way that excludes others?

So the fight to abolish collective worship in schools is really not my fight, my heart would not be in it, I couldn't dedicate myself to it. In short I'd be so awful attempting this fight I would not push the cause any further forward. Simply because I don't want to abolish collective worship in schools, in my heart of hearts, I value collective worship. You'd be asking me to disown an essential part of myself.

Anyone can join in the worship who wants to. Those who don't want to can opt out. It shouldn't exclude.

"You'd be asking me to disown an essential part of myself."

No I wouldn't- you can collectively worship with your children for 18 hours a day and 24 at the weekends if you like.

You're asking me disown an essential part of myself- the part that thinks my children should not be made to pray- that their religious life should be one they choose for themselves. And that they should not be made conspicuous by having to opt out of part of an assembly simply because Christians think you can't have "quiet reflection" without God in it.

There are faith schools of faiths other than Christianity in this country. They must get round the legislation somehow. I remember doing some work in a school many years ago where they celebrated festivals from religions other than Christianity.