How did you know you believed

[tempusfoogit]

I am so interested in finding out how others felt drawn to faith-I am a fence-sitter at the moment, equally drawn to and repulsed by 'Religion'. I feel spiritual feelings, often give gratitude to 'something',have an interest in religious texts and believe there is an energy which goes on after we die, but cannot bring myself to become involved in organised religion. It is a simplistic thing, but the current happenings in Israel/Palestine sicken me to the core and I have all the usual questions of how supposedly religious, empathic, loving believers can carry out such atrocities. I was brought up in an atheist household and would love to hear from anyone who found themselves believing after such a childhood-was it a blinding flash, a gentle realisation or something else? Thank you so much if you have time/inclination to answer

Morality is done by God
We as humans have to fit Him and his, not the other way round.
His rules.

morality is done by god

How are we to assess his worthiness as a god if we can't trust our own morals? He knew we would have to rely on our own morality to decide to follow him which seems sheer craziness when he assumes we are morally hopeless. And if he knew we had enough morality to decide he was good why not carry on as we are seeing as god trusted us to perceive good and bad actions before we accepted him into our hearts or however you describe it.

why didn't he then

Why didn't he denounce stoning people. Why didn't he say she can jolly well have sex with any, and as many consenting adult she wants to. Why make out that anyone would ever have a right to do that. That would have been way more radical and moral. No one should ever feel they have the right to stone people for having sex with another consenting adult. No one should ever feel that would be just.

It shouldn't have been a case of 'yeah, technically you deserve to have rocks thrown at your head but hey, I'm in a good mood so of you pop now and stop enjoying sex'

read the bible

I have, and still have about 5 different translations lying around. AND I can recite all the books of the bible NT AND OT. I was a Christian for about 30 years so know the scriptures quite well

that account was settled by someone else

See, I think people should be responsible for what they have done. If I screw up and hurt people it's the people I hurt I owe and apology to, no one should be able to take that from me. If someone lets me down it's for them to apologise, no one else. It would be immoral for someone to go to prison on your behalf. The justice system takes a very dim view of people trying to take the rap for each other and for a good reason, because it's not good, because it's not fair

a woman hated and scorned

Do you know what, if I was that woman and Jesus was saying to me 'hey, you deserve to be hated and scorned but I'm going to be nice* i'd think 'you know what, you can keep it'. It's such a patronising stance. The right thing to do would have been to address the sexist attitudes of society rather than propagating the idea that somehow on paper she had done something to deserve a stoning. She'd had sex with someone.

We dont assess His worthiness! He assesses ours. at the End.

Not worthiness as in are we worthy enough to have Him. It is a gift from Him, not done on our worthiness in the first instance.

headinhands[and yes, I am that poster! ]
He judges us at the end.
You are fond of judging Him.

But everything you say is back to front.
He makes the rules, we follow.

Perhaps I can ask you a question.

When you judge Him, whose rules are you using?

I grew up going to Sunday school and then church as a young adult as it was expected of me.

Recently, though, I have become very disillusioned. The church I attend is very informal and evangelical (has become much more evident since change of minister) and I don't feel happy there any longer.

I honestly don't know what I believe in any more. As a Christian am I supposed to believe in, and abide by everything it says in the bible?

Our new minister believes that wives should be submissive etc etc and I'm not happy about stuff like that.

Any suggestions?

You could try another church, Lesley. I wouldn't be happy with that kind of teaching, either, as I believe it's a completely wrong understanding of scripture.

Nobody can abide by everything it says in the bible, or we wouldn't be wearing clothes made out of cotton and lycra or many other things which were laws for a certain society at a certain time for a certain purpose, mainly to keep them safe and healthy. Christianity is not about the letter of the law, but about God's love and being in relationship with God and each other.

Sounds like it would be really good for you to explore some questions around your faith. I think it's vital to keep questioning faith in a robust way, and never accept what you're told as gospel, as it were - it sounds to me like you might benefit from going on a course like Emmaus or Christianity Explored to look at some of these questions in more depth.

I'm sorry you've become disillusioned, but maybe you could look on it as a positive time to explore what you believe in more depth and break away from something you are not comfortable with? Do you have some good friends at that church, and people you trust? Maybe it would be good to talk with them too.

Hello headinhands :) Jesus never turned round and said she deserved anything, in fact he hung out with women such as her and saw them as his friends and worthy of God's love as much as anyone else. She was scorned and rejected by society, not him. His actions spoke loudly in this case.

Hello sitting - yep I know who you are too ;)

Thanks madhairday

To me, this minister we've got is like something out of the past although he's only in his thirties. A lot of people are not happy and on a good day we have a congregation of about 16!!

Unfortunately he's been told that his preaching isn't appropriate (we've since discovered he hasn't got other jobs because of his preaching style) but he thinks he knows it all and won't take advice. Maybe he'll realise when he's only preaching to his wife and kids on a Sunday!

I think I need to take a step back and a break and explore some other options.

keep them safe and healthy

Ah so god was interested in their health and safety. If I'd been him I'd have spoken to them about germs and bacteria. All this 'cut two pigeons in half and smear the blood on your left door post' would have just seemed too silly to me seeing as I knew the real cause of illness and disease and what not. Still, what do I know eh?

madhairday

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. You're saying 'wow, he showed her mercy and taught the others to do the same' I'm saying she had done nothing to warrant being merciful. Not throwing rocks at someone's head for sleeping with another consenting adult(s) isn't particularly merciful in my book, it's normal.

head at the pigeons and door posts - yep, it would make much more sense for God to tell them about germs, but then again, God communicates in ways people understand, and not sure >4th century BC Jews would have quite computed....

I know, I know, re the woman. But the point is, under the old law, she would have been sentenced to death. I happen to agree with you about the utterly barbaric nature of such laws, but you know what I think about all that :) Jesus, however, came and turned that law upside down by taking her out of it and also by saying in effect that no one was perfect - 'where are they all now?' He gave her a chance at a better life - turned things on their head. like he always does :) Adultery isn't as blameless as you seem to be suggesting, it may be consensual but it's also usually hurting the third party - but Jesus didn't condemn her - said explicitly he didn't condemn her, and also suggested she try a new way.

adultery isn't as blameless

I'm not saying it's a fantastic idea, I am saying it's never something that would justify having rocks thrown at your head. Ever.

suggested she try a new way

And if she didn't want that new way? How about Jesus dealt with the problem. Instead of getting women to not have sex with consenting adults that they're not married to how about he stopped people thinking it was okay to throw rocks at people for having sex with consenting adults they're not married to. And you know what, as long as the other person consented then so be it. I would like my husband to be faithful, if he had a sexual relationship with another person while married to me I might well end our romantic relationship and be hurt but that's his choice. I love him enough for him to make his own decisions. I don't want him to be faithful because he fears punishment or because someone else told him he should.

not sure .....Jews would have quite computed

Oh I don't know. I knew nothing when I was born and in 42 years I've managed to get my head around all sorts. You underestimate the human brain! I do feel your reasoning on this is sheer unadulterated excusal, but then I would

Ah you know me, I wouldn't call it deeply thought reasoning at this point, more pondering and playing.

I don't think anyone 'deserves' rocks to be thrown at them for anything at all and neither did Jesus. That was part of the point :)

and neither did Jesus

Ah but his did set up the laws you see. And apparently Jesus is just like his dad.

Deuteronomy 22:22 "If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die".

Mad, is that moral to you?

headinhands.
God makes the rules. End of.
What you or I think of them is , well irrelevant.
We bow to Him, not the other way round. No get out clauses.

And what we call His rules is irrelvant also. And what we read about them is irrelevant.
I think that I may have quoted the potters wheel bit before?
We are the clay. That is it. He is the potter.
He can do whatever He pleases.