Believers VS Non-belivers

[edwardcullensotherwoman]

Why is it that if someone believes in something, they will talk about it as exactly that - something they believe in - and not portray it as absolute fact; yet if someone doesn't believe in something, they will say this as an absolute fact and ridicule those who believe?

It's almost as if those who don't believe (in whatever the subject: angels, God, reincarnation) consider themselves superior to those who do, and view those who do as stupid for doing so.

Surely everyone's beliefs are their own belief and opinion - nothing "woo" can be either proven or disproven, so therefore nobody is right or wrong.

It just seems that every thread that starts "Do you believe" on this board ends up in a bun fight with believes defending themselves against non-believers who tell them they're being ridiculous. The clue is in the title of the board - if you don't believe in anything that's likely to be discussed under that heading, just avoid the board!

Errol but if you actively believe something is true, you live you life by it. Although not provable as fact, this becomes like a working understanding of what is true.

In this way I'm not Agnostic at all, I don't 'try all things...', I don't follow my own 'reason as far as it will take..' [me]. I possess a reverence for Christian belief and have Christian Faith. This is why I identify myself as a Christian.

"You say 'personal revelation', others may say 'psychosis'.
'This statement is borderline offensive.'

Errm... hearing voices is a symptom of psychosis, and the above sentence you find offensive is entirely true.

Why is it, do you think, that you find reality offensive? Why can't anyone talk about these subjects without you & other faithful getting all offended?

Psychosis
Signs and symptoms[edit]
People with psychosis may have one or more of the following: hallucinations, delusions, catatonia, or a thought disorder, as described below. Impairments in social cognition also occur.[11][12]

Hallucinations[edit]
A hallucination is defined as sensory perception in the absence of external stimuli... Auditory hallucinations, particularly experiences of hearing voices, are the most common and often prominent feature of psychosis.

From Wikipedia.

" if you actively believe something is true, you live you life by it. Although not provable as fact, this becomes like a working understanding of what is true. "

I have no idea what that means. "Working understanding of what is true"?

what I want to know is how dynamo does his thing.. the things he does is impossible so how does he do it?

"Working understanding of what is true" sounds similar to "persistent fantasy".

Psychotic experiences are normal. Everybody has them. They can be caused by illness, medication, allergies, tiredness, strong emotions, even nothing at all. We all slip in and out of momentary sleep several times a day. Most people simply ignore their mini-psychoses, or go "well, that was odd" and forget about them. If someone has a particularly impactful or long lasting one, they might put it down to aliens or the supernatural.

Have you never heard a friend or relative's voice, knowing they're not within earshot?

cote - however, you can have hallucinations without being clinically psychotic (as the wiki piece mentions). I've experienced a couple of small auditory hallucinations - on the edge of sleep, distinctly hearing my DH call out to me... except he was sound asleep. So fortunately just mildly irritating - and in retrospect interesting. What might I have thought if the voice saying my name had been someone other than my DH?

xpost...

I think this bit of the discussion shows how a term such as 'psychosis' may be used by someone of a scientific bent as the correct technical term for a phenomenon, but be interpreted as offensive because 'psychotic' is unfortunately too often used as an insult 'oh he's psycho'.

Yup, Errol :)

Cote

Why is it, do you think, that you find reality offensive? Why can't anyone talk about these subjects without you & other faithful getting all offended?

Psychosis
Signs and symptoms[edit]
People with psychosis may have one or more of the following: hallucinations, delusions, catatonia, or a thought disorder, as described below. Impairments in social cognition also occur.[11][12]

Hallucinations[edit]
A hallucination is defined as sensory perception in the absence of external stimuli... Auditory hallucinations, particularly experiences of hearing voices, are the most common and often prominent feature of psychosis.

Personal revelation does not include any of the symptoms of psychosis, the symptoms of psychosis are the symptoms of psychosis. It is offensive to suggest that all religious experiences are actually symptoms of psychosis. A lot people of Christian Faith would say their Faith is experiential, to suggest they are all experiencing psychosis is offensive.

Personally I do not experience visions or hear voices either. As I said previously, my personal revelation is through experience and often serendipitous coincidences, which I have found meaningful in relation to my developing Faith. Where people do, have visions, hear God's voice, the arguable point is "the absence of external stimuli.". If it is truly a spiritual experience there is external stimuli.

If you look back at the post that you got oh so offended at, you will see that I was talking about hearing voices, not all "revelation" whatever you think those might be.

" A lot people of Christian Faith would say their Faith is experiential, to suggest they are all experiencing psychosis is offensive."

Why is it offensive? If something unusual happens to someone isn't it a good idea to look at all the possibilities? And hearing voices, seeing things which aren't there, imagining that people are communicating when they aren't are all symptoms of some sorts of mental illness that a huge number of people experience in their lives. It's not offensive to suggest this should be considered before you accept that God is actually talking to you.

Hak Why offensive? To globally assume dysfunction / illness for a group of people, without even examining them, is IMO offensive, as it is tantamount to prejudice.

Symptoms of a particular illness, are only symptoms of that particular illness, when it is established someone is suffering from that particular illness.

For example, if a person was short sighted, their visual perception is not what it should be. They might imagine a person from a distance is one of their relatives, but only when they get closer, realize they are not. This would not be classed a a psychotic hallucination, as it is a result of their short sightedness. Their symptoms of seeing someone as someone else are symptoms of shortsightedness.

So it is offensive to say that particular symptoms might indicate a mental illness?

Well, I suppose if you assume that mental illness is something to be ashamed of......

Hak No I don't think mental illness is something to be ashamed of at all.

However I do think Foucaults's comment on insanity is very pertinent here. As I previously stated, he commented that madness has never had a definition which relates to 'absolute truth'. Instead by acquiring the power to define it, people have been able to use diagnosis of madness to gain control over people.

The question has to be asked, whether the primary motivations for suggesting insanity are in order to discredit the integrity of people of religious belief?

OK.

Somebody hears voices. It is established that those voices do not come from any external source.

Are you really saying that we should give equal credibility to the likelihood that it is the voice of God they are hearing and that they are suffering from auditory hallucinations? Seriously?

Corus Think about your definition for a minute....Some scientists would argue that they are beginning to believe their is no such thing as true Chaos / truly random events...the patterns are just very large so difficult to detect....what about the ones who disagree?

Hak I am saying you treat every situation individually and on it's own merits. No assumptions.

Have any of the believers here actually heard a voice?

Corus I am not in the position to be able to profess an opinion about your friend since I do not know them and I am not a Psychiatrist.

This is the point.

FWIW, I don't believe most religious people have disordered thinking or mental disorders.

I am pleased you acknowledge this.

No, the point is that when someone is talking about ways in which religious revelation is akin to psychosis, you need to know that psychosis doesn't just involve hearing voices; it can also include seeing meaning in the occurrence of "serendipitous" events.

If scientists question the existence of true randomness it renders the above, as a sure sign of dysfunction meaningless. Personally I would ask the question of whether this is causing a dysfunction in the person's life - is it causing harm to themselves or causing them to behave harmfully towards others, before I spoke of dysfunction.

Corus Several. I know 2 people who have being committed.