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Original poster

Do you believe in guardian angels?

366 replies

beakerandburette · 14/05/2014 21:50

I have an 2mo DD and recently I have been finding white feathers in her cot, pram, Moses basket ect. I mentioned it to my mum and she suggested it could be an angel, I'm a little sceptical but I must admit it is a little bit strange.

So do you believe and have you had any experience of this?

OP posts:
headinhands · 15/06/2014 06:48

I believed God had and is interacting with us

It calls to mind the female bishops issue. You've got some heavyweights of the CofE voting a simple yes or no, and these people are like full on 'walking the walk' Christians and even then god is unable to effectively communicate a simple yes or no to them clearly. What chance do the rest of you have!?

Having done it publicy (and got it documented)

Sorry not sure what you mean?

for a demanding and disbelieving world, personal experiences are really the only way uncertain people will truly believe,

You say demanding and disbelieving like it's a bad thing. It a very good thing. You see, using your model of 'believe it because someone told you/you got goose bumps when you thought about xyz' is there is nothing to stop you believing anything. I could use your model and become a believer in any faith or belief system that exists. Any at all. I'd like a system that was a little more reliable and the best one is an evidence based system.

they need to open their hearts to seek, ask and wait

headinhands · 15/06/2014 06:52

they need to open their hearts to seek, ask and wait

What's your faith Squid. Is your heart open to other gods too or just the god you believe in? How do you know if your heart is open? Can I have it open to every god just in case? I'm not even sure I understand what having an open heart means but I am open to examining new evidence for a supernatural claim, can't say fairer than that.

Hakluyt · 15/06/2014 09:39

"Oh, it's that omniscient, omnipotent, all loving , fatherly God who is unable to intervene in the lives of his creation again : Hak, that last part especially also doubles as an answer to this....or perhaps, more tongue-in-cheek, I should answer with something like: "Oh, it's that old 'I should be able to do whatever I like, whenever I like and God should sort it all out for me and I shouldn't have to take any responsibility' thing again... ;-)"

I don't think I should be able to do whatever I like. I don't expect God to sort anything out for me (what with me not believing he exists that would be a bit unreasonable of me). But if I did believe, I would want to know why he doesn't behave like any good father I know. And why he never, despite specifically promising, answers prayers.

headinhands · 15/06/2014 10:06

we hurt because....of the way we rebel

Like I said earlier those who suffer the most helplessness are those who are incapable of rebelling. Also people are very capable of believing in a god and hurting people. Even people who claim to have a relationship with god are every bit as equally capable of dreadful things. Also, if this relationship with god is so great why do Christians commit suicide pretty much as often as non-Christians? It seems to offer no discernible benefit over and above other forms of support. You'd expect it to no?

Hakluyt · 15/06/2014 10:35

I hesitate to post this- and I will ask for it to be deleted if people think I should. But there was a well known Mumsnetter whose child died. For ages beforehand there had been prayer threads, people sending light and thoughts- literally thousands of people all over the world were praying with all their hearts for that child. But she died.

One post stuck in my mind, and is still there. Somebody said "We're lifting her up on prayer so God can see her" Now if an all powerful all knowing all loving God (the one for whom "not a sparrow falls......") needs one of his creation to be "lifted up"before he sees her, and even then turns his face away then isn't it better that he doesn't exist? Because if he does exist, what kind of a monster is he?

headinhands · 15/06/2014 11:05

Hey guess what? - He's done just that!!

When? If you're referring to the bible and have taken words in a book as proof then what's to stop you believing the claims of the other 15 or so religious texts?

headinhands · 15/06/2014 11:10

Now imagine their older (shall we say later teenage?) children start rebelling, going a bit wild, messing up and destroying things, fighting, etc., etc. What should a loving, responsible parent do? Let them carry on doing whatever

No they shouldn't tolerate it. But if their child was dying in front of them they'd do all they could to help them, my god you know it. They wouldn't watch their child be beaten and murdered, nether would they watch one be murdered while giving another one all care and concern.

LynetteScavo · 15/06/2014 11:14

I believe in guardian angels.

I'm not so sure about the feather thing, although I did find one when I unpacked the hospital bag after ds1 was born, which was lovely.Smile

headinhands · 15/06/2014 11:18

That kind of argument always makes me think of the little spoilt brat doing and demanding whatever he/she wants and being upset and surprised when the loving, caring parent does the right thing and says no at such times.

Sometimes that spoilt brat (ugh) is actually a frightened abused child. People shouldn't be blameless, its right that we have a justice system and that, where we can, we hold perpetrators accountable. But sometimes people are not responsible for what happens to them, all the examples you give are of people suffering the consequences of their own foolish decisions, and even then i think a little mercy is a good thing. Also, its not a level playing field. Some people have damaging childhoods that make them more likely to cope poorly in society, don't get me wrong, people should be prevented from hurting other people but we don't all start off with the same.

What loving parent would say no to their starving child?

headinhands · 15/06/2014 11:22

If you made such limited things you are responsible for what they do in your world

Which is the point I'm making. If we were 'fit for purpose' we wouldn't be doing what we're doing would we?

MostWicked · 15/06/2014 11:45

they need to open their hearts to seek, ask and wait

I did that. Many years ago, I joined the church. I was involved for years. I studied the bible, went away on retreats, embraced god and asked him into my heart. The thing is, the entire time I was doing it, I was waiting to feel something. Waiting to feel that special love that everyone around me was describing. I felt absolutely diddly squat. I had fun, I enjoyed the company of others, but I never felt any religious connection at all. Not so much as a flicker. It felt like I was failing because no matter how hard I tried to be religious, I just couldn't. So I walked away. It was the most wonderfully liberating feeling and within minutes, I actually felt free to be me. I began questioning again. I realised how absurd the bible was and how controlling the whole religion was - not necessarily overtly, but in the need to belong.
It was like walking away from an abusive relationship, I never looked back and never regretted it. Now I realise that I was quite needy and vulnerable at the time. I lacked the confidence to be able to live my life according to my own values. Walking away gave me that confidence. It was one of the best decisions I ever made.

God will not be put to the test and "made to jump"
Such a huge cop out. He'll do miracles, but only when no-one is looking, and he won't do them all the time for everyone who asks, and sometimes he will do them for people who don't ask and sometimes they will happen for good people and other times they will happen for bad people. It's called RANDOM!

Hakluyt · 15/06/2014 12:02

"God will not be put to the test and "made to jump"
Such a huge cop out. He'll do miracles, but only when no-one is looking, and he won't do them all the time for everyone who asks, and sometimes he will do them for people who don't ask and sometimes they will happen for good people and other times they will happen for bad people. It's called RANDOM!"

And he will only do miracles that involve curing people of things that tend to go into remission anyway, or which haven't been properly diagnosed in the first place. As in the "properly attested miracles " attributed to the two latest Catholic saints.

headinhands · 15/06/2014 12:09

And his miracles will spookily match what medicine can achieve anyway. Why do christians pray and ask god to guide the surgeons hands when a loved one is having an operation? Surely with the creator of the universe getting involved they could do away with the need for the operation altogether and god could just heal them, which would cancel out the patient running the risk of post operative complications. Alternatively if god is effectively doing the guiding why bother with the surgeon attending medical school for 7 years, they could drag any old person in off the streets, it wouldnt matter would it.

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/06/2014 20:40

Jak, will you ask for your post to be deleted please.

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/06/2014 20:41

Sorry, that should have Hak, not Jak.

Hakluyt · 15/06/2014 21:34

Dione- I will. But I would be grateful if you would tell me why.

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/06/2014 22:03

Because I feel very uncomfortable reading it. And it has caused me to think a little less of you. It is not a good post and it saddens me.

Thank you for asking to get it deleted.

Hakluyt · 15/06/2014 22:35

I can live with you thinking less of me. However, I don't think you can just say "it is not a good post" without saying more. It is sincerely what I think and feel. And It was what I felt at the time. It might be uncomfortable for you to read as a Christian, but I have a right to my feelings.

DioneTheDiabolist · 15/06/2014 22:58

It did not offend my religious sensibilities Hak.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/06/2014 11:14

Hak, what made you hesitate to make that post and why did you offer to have it deleted if someone asked you?

Hakluyt · 16/06/2014 11:55

I'm sorry, Dione- I think you should answer some questions before you ask any more.

I have asked Mumsnet to adjudicate on whether my post should be deleted. I realised that I wasn't prepared to delete my sincere thoughts and feelings just on the strength of you saying you wanted me to. I did ask you to explain why before I made this decision, but you declined to.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/06/2014 12:07

Hak, I answered your questions. What further questions do you have?

Hakluyt · 16/06/2014 12:10

You said "it is not a good post". I asked you what you meant.

DioneTheDiabolist · 16/06/2014 12:23

I meant that I felt uncomfortable reading it and that it made me think less of you that you would take a post from a thread supporting a dying child's family and use it this way. I meant that it made me think less of you. That is why I did not think it was a good post.

Why did you hesitate before making the post and why did you offer to ask for it to be removed?

Hakluyt · 16/06/2014 12:53

Ah, right. Then as I said, I can live with you thinking less of me. I am surprised you think anything of me at all.

I hesitated, and said I would delete in case any of the people directly involved wanted me to, or if the mood of the thread was that I was wrong to post. But it was a very important moment for me because if I had any lingering desire to believe, or "respect" for Christianity, that moment extinguished it, finally and completely.

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