Do you believe in guardian angels?

[beakerandburette]

I have an 2mo DD and recently I have been finding white feathers in her cot, pram, Moses basket ect. I mentioned it to my mum and she suggested it could be an angel, I'm a little sceptical but I must admit it is a little bit strange.

So do you believe and have you had any experience of this?

Sorry but anyone who claims to have found lost children with their "gifts" deserves every bit of derision aimed at them. Disgusting lies to peddle.

Ah but people don't attack ideas - they make obvious attacks at the people posting them.

Lottie. Ignore them. There are only a couple of posters who do that. Ignore, and carry on the debate.

What was it you were saying about IB and her ability to find lost children?

Hak - yes you are probably right. The problem is that some of the unpleasantness I have encountered has made me (unfairly) prickly towards people who are just putting their point of view and have a genuine debate. I shouldn't assume everyone is the same.

But wrt IB, she didn't elaborate on exactly what she meant or her interaction with any parents. It's therefore a bit unfair to assume anything about her and what she does.

I agree Lottie This thread and the other seem to have degenerated into witch hunt by a couple of posters.

Attacking people is not allowed. Attacking ideas is called "debate". Absolutely agree but would you call free reign to ridicule the religious beliefs of others. Absolutely. I will ridicule the ridiculous debate? I don't see much debate there, just insult. Debate encourages thought and discussion, it is not debate to simply insult another's viewpoint

I am bowing out of this now as it is clear that some posters are close minded, think they know everything categorically and feel entitled to browbeat others with it but I think it's important to note that, clinically, pain is defined as "an unpleasant physical sensation which may be accompanied by mental and emotional distress". Most therapies, psychics, etc aim to help people. If reiki, homeopathy, angels or anything else ease that distress for people then it is not for anyone else to deny them because it doesn't fit with their view of scientifically explainable

When the religion and philosophy topic started out it was reasonable iirc and people did just used to post alternative views without being rude. Absolutely fine. But since then it has definitely degenerated into making suggestions that people are crazy, ill, stupid or bad parents. It's not tolerated anywhere else on the site so it should not be here. There are unfortunately some people who really don't care whose feelings they hurt. Consequently, a lot of people including me just don't post stuff on here any more because we know what the outcome will be. Even if it is just one or two posters it's enough to put you off. Which is what they want.

making suggestions that people are crazy

If you see specific posters breaking posting rules you should report to MNHQ for their attention. Fwiw I've had some pretty nasty things implied about me with all manner of threats of divine punishment, does it hurt my feelings much? Not really. I'd probably clear off if I couldn't cope with it.

Earlier I made the suggestion that we wouldn't respect homophobia. Until recent history such views were mainstream. Ultimately someone will be hurt by any opinion. Not debating because of the fear of hurting feelings is ridiculous. If I had beliefs that were so easily shaken and I wasn't interested in having them examined I would avoid airing them, I wouldn't even read the message boards.

"But since then it has definitely degenerated into making suggestions that people are crazy, ill, stupid or bad parents."

Presumably you have reported this? What did MNHQ say?

No Headinhands it's perfectly possible to have a debate without getting personal and nasty and accusing people of being bad parents.

Yes you can get the comments deleted. But it's the same nastiness on nearly every thread and I do think it's a deliberate attempt to stop people posting.

Wouldn't it just be better if we challenged the perceived attacks? That's what I have done when it's happened to me. Someone says 'god's going to punish you for saying he's not real' and I've said 'how do you know? Why would he do that? How is that justifiable?' And so on. Use debate to counter the insults by asking why/how etc. To be honest when people say 'ouch, you hurt my feelings when you don't believe what I do' it just sounds like 'go away, your reason and logic is spoiling my game'.

Lottie- people really do seem to regard any dissent as an attack. I have not seen accusations of bad parenting- is this something that happened to you?

Yes Hak.

My overall general point is the the tone on this board has definitely changed and become more and more aggressive and there is no need for it.

After I encountered personal comments about me I was pmed by at least a few people each time who said that they had had to put up with the same thing.

Presumably you reported their poster?

You were rather talking as if it happened a lot, rather than one poster having an issue with something you said.

Also- if a poster genuinely thought that something you were doing was bad for your children, surely they have the right to say so?

Not debating because of the fear of hurting feelings is ridiculous.

Exactly this, Head.

When people experience attacks on their opinions as personal attacks, it means their opinions are so precious/fragile that they can't defend them. Instead of insisting critics should shut up, they'd do better to find out how to defend their position. There are some full-on muslims & christians here, for example, who are very capable of robust discussion without any loss of mutual respect. Woo believers, in general, seem unable to cope with it.

When I was little, one of the neighbour's children used to insist on being given a head start in races - and on a no-overtaking rule! She'd throw massive tantrums if we said we wouldn't race under conditions that guaranteed her winning. Eventually we gave up on her and she had to 'race' on her own. These discussions feel like that to me.

No they do not have the right to say so - they know nothing about my situation or my children. And the comments were deleted. You are always going to get some heated threads where comments are deleted but it's not usually the same people saying the same stuff.

You're missing the point Garlic - mumsnet does have a policy of basic netiquette and a philosophy regarding how to treat others.

So MNHQ deleted the posts concerned. Surely that shows the system is working?

I've said plenty of times and so have others that it's fine to attack an idea or belief but not to make rude and personal comments directed the poster themselves. It would not be allowed on education or feeding threads so it should not be allowed here.

It's not a hard concept to grasp. I'm going to hide this thread now because I've more than made my point.

But everyone's agreeing with you!

I agree with sunshine, lottie and the others who clearly understand that it's perfectly possible (and correct) to challenge views, beliefs and ideas and explain why you disagree and have a debate around that, without resorting to personal attacks against a person, their intelligence, character, etc. The latter is never acceptable.

As a firm and very grounded long-time Christian, I'd have no problems debating with someone of another faith, a "spiritualist" or atheist about the rights and wrongs of different beliefs and thoughts of spiritual matters (or even lack of in the case of an atheist). But I'd never attack them as a person! In debating, my aim would be to explain from my point why I thought their views weren't right with my understanding (or dcould even be dangerous in certain spiritual matters like the occult, etc.). My hope would be that my thoughts might mean something to them, whether now or in the future. Likewise, I'm sure they'd be hoping the same.

And on the aspect of science disproofing the existance of God, etc., you might be interested to not that I'm both a scientist (degree in Physiology) and IT manager. I'm very much into reading and understanding the latest theories of the origins of the cosmos, the material world, quantum physics, etc. I really enjoy that stuff and seeing the wonder of understanding God's creation in it. The two ARE perfectly possible and don't have to be contradictory!

meant note that, not not

Can I respectfully suggest that focussing on the bad behaviour of a couple of posters like this is very efficiently shutting down the discussion? Much more so, I suspect, than the posts of the aforementioned bad guys?

I'm glad there is some agreement here, now all we need is more people posting the 'how do you know? Why would he do that? How is that justifiable?' type responses like headinhands says and less of the personal attacks that some posters have suffered