Wives submit to their husbands...

[Gillian76]

Have just heard this reading at church and been a rguing with DH. How can I be part of an organisation that teaches:

"SECOND READING Ephesians 5:21-32

Give way to one another in obedience to Christ. Wives should regard their husbands as they regard the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is a husband the head of his wife; and as the Church submits~ to Christ, so should wives to their husbands, in everything."?

And this is what it said to the husbands...

"Husbands should love their wives just as Christ loved the Church and sacrificed himself for her to make her holy. He made her clean by washing her in water with a form of words, so that when he took her to himself she would be glorious, with no speck or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and faultless. In the same way, husbands must love their wives as they love their own bodies; for a man to love his wife is for him to love himself. A man never hates his own body, but he feeds it and looks after it; and that is the way Christ treats the Church, because it is his body - and we are its living parts. For this reason, a man must leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one body"

Don't feel like I needed to be cleaned before he took me to himself...

And what's more, the priest totally avoided the issue, choosing instead to preach on the other readings.

I have a HUGE problem with this and being part of an organisation that thinks we are not equal to men. What's more I cannot bring my daughters up to believe this.

DH however is staunch Catholic and wants ut to go together.

How can we find some common ground on this?

Seriously, your church talks about God as Mother?

Good grief - I leave this thread alone for a few days and it's mammoth!

I'll have a trawl through when I've got more time, but as an aside for nearlythree I'll describe my church.

We are an independent church who meet in a community hall - well more of a back room really. There is no overall leader but there are two deacons - one male, one female - both with equal responsibilty for the general running of the church - preaching rota/pastoral care/inviting speakers/giving to various causes etc. All the women in our church are strong willed, independent thinking and wise women with very different personalities. Everyone contributes in some way whether it's praying, preaching, leading etc. Our female deacon has done some fantastic preaching on the role of women both in relationships and within the church. And she submits to her husband.

My 2 children are currently the only ones and the rest of the church (without me asking) devised a Sunday School for my ds with a rota and bought workbooks/paint/play dough etc. Ds loves Sunday school and is encouraged to take communion in church too (he's 4 on Friday). Dd is 14 months and is passed round everyone for cuddles and illicit biscuits.

When we first visited the church, ds was just 2 and started chatting through the sermon. I moved to take him out of the service and immediately the preacher stopped and asked me to stay. At that point every person rummaged in their pockets and handbags and ds was presented with a mountain of Twix bars, wine gums and jelly tots!

A box of musical instruments was produced for ds and the following week, one of the members of the worship team brought a spare bodhran for ds to bash during the worship!

I could go on and on, but bascially if people are truly seeking after Christ then it must be an automatic response to want to enable others to do the same. In our instance, as a family, we have been bowled over by the help and support from our fellow worshippers to enable us to worship and fellowship on a Sunday without feeling that our children are disturbing others.

I thought there was some OT stuff about God being like a mother? I've certainly heard it preached on recently I'm sure.

Yes, there is quite a lot of it. And Sophia is wisdom personified as a woman.

Who's Sophia?

But neither me nor anyone teaching at our church would refer to God as mother, but definitely God has the characteristics of a mother/female and mothers us as well as fathers us - certainly that's my experience of God. Just wanted to clarify. But I think that argument has petered out now?

well, no, not generally, but certainly nobody has a problem with God having maternal qualities. I have no problem with God being our 'Father', as Jesus himself calls him this, and although God certainly says at times that he is like a mother, he doesn't (as far as I know) call himself a Mother, and neither does Jesus.

"Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you!
Isaiah 49:14-16

As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."
Isaiah 66:12-14

I can't find the one about God gathering Israel under his wings lik a mother hen, but I love that one too. I find it very helpful to know that God feels motherly towards us, because I know exactly what 'motherly' feels like.

Astrophe - it's here

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (and the same in Luke 13:34)

Love that verse - the thought of God longing to restore a relationship with us - amazing stuff!

btw nearlythree, I'm sorry you have had some bad experiences at churches in the past. Please remember that Christianity is about following The Christ though, not following his people, who, obviously get it wrong sometimes. Stick with it.

thanks bobsmum. I was looking in the OT...must be a reference to the OT surely, but can't find it.

Your church sounds lovely. We are fortunate to have lots of kids at ours, and we always feel at home too. Where is your church?

Hate to go back to what bloss refers to as my 'unreliable, experience...but it is because I have experienced God as Mother that I get so dismayed when the church ignores this. I have no problem with 'Father' either but many people - very often women - do have difficulty in relating to any possibilty that fathers can be loving.

Will post about Sophia tomorrow - am off to bed!

Astrophe - we're a little fellowship probably about halfway between Glasgow and Stirling. My understanding of it's history is that a group of Christians split from the local Church of Scotland after a disagreement with the minister - possibly he was not a Christian I think. Anyway, when everyone turns up there are about 30 of us, but usually 20 or so. All the students are about to go back to uni so that'll shrink things for a while. It feels like home, but I wish there was more opportunity for outreach into the local community - sounds like there are a lot of hurts from the past that are still ingering

bobsmum, our church is a c of e which had a 'new' vicar about 5 years ago (before our time - we moved from sydney last year) who really turned things around. as far as i know the previous vicar was possibly not a Christian either - it is very sad isn't it? there are still many of the original parishners attending, some who live it, some who don't, so some hurts there too

Nearlythree, it must be very hard indeed to relate to God as a Father for those who have not experienced loving earthly fathers.

i meant 'love it', but 'live' sort of works on another level!

Nearlythree, I know what you mean by sophia - I read a very interesting book on feminism in christianity which was a series of debates between Elaine STorkey (evangelical philosophical type) and a RC lady who is pro-women priests ( Ithink! I may be remembering wrongly!) but anyway they went into it in some detail and into various expressions of sophia around the world.

Just want to chuck another couple of ingredients into the pot -

On behalf of the church, please may I say that change happens slowly! It's annoying but true. It's going to take generations for attitudes towards women to change. When you consider where the UK was 100 years ago you can see that generally, sociologically we've come a long way. And churches, being conservative in nature, change yet more slowly that society at large (again, annoying but true). Yes there is still a long way to go but we are getting ther, I really believe that. Slowly slowly catchee monkey!!!

Also, to encourage you - I went to one of these big christian festivals over the summer (FAB!!!) and one evening the man leading the meeting (service is too elevated a word) invited any women to come to the front for prayer if they felt that the church had quashed their God-given dreams and ambitions or if they had sufferd from any form of sexism / misogny in the church. Well hundreds went forward (no exaggeration - there were 5000 there) and the man leading the evening prayed on behalf of the church asking for forgiveness for the church for putting out so many fires in the hearts of the women there, and asking God to re-envision them (the women). It was a powerful thing watching this and it might sound a bit hyped up but I believe it was utterly genuine (and I know the leaders of the event well enough to know that their hearts are utterly genuine). It may be a little thing but it signals a deep desire in the church to change and to repent of wrong attitudes which have harmed people greatly. The festival was loosely anglican but very much mainstream evangelical christian. It certainly gave me a bit of hope, more than anything gor the women who went up for prayer, that they would leave the festival confident of their Gosd-given abilities and selves.

Maybe I'm over-optimistic but there are some good things happening - honest!

Not only did Mrs. Dominic refuse point blank to promise to always "obey" me, she wouldn't even accept my compromise of "believe".

DC - I'm not saying a word...

There was no way I was going to promise to obey. I was talking about this last night with the Vicar and his wife. He was jokingly bemoaning the fact that his wife had promised to obey, and hadn't kept her vows!

Lol DominiConnor

(never thoughtI'd say that)