Wives submit to their husbands...

[Gillian76]

Have just heard this reading at church and been a rguing with DH. How can I be part of an organisation that teaches:

"SECOND READING Ephesians 5:21-32

Give way to one another in obedience to Christ. Wives should regard their husbands as they regard the Lord, since as Christ is head of the Church and saves the whole body, so is a husband the head of his wife; and as the Church submits~ to Christ, so should wives to their husbands, in everything."?

And this is what it said to the husbands...

"Husbands should love their wives just as Christ loved the Church and sacrificed himself for her to make her holy. He made her clean by washing her in water with a form of words, so that when he took her to himself she would be glorious, with no speck or wrinkle or anything like that, but holy and faultless. In the same way, husbands must love their wives as they love their own bodies; for a man to love his wife is for him to love himself. A man never hates his own body, but he feeds it and looks after it; and that is the way Christ treats the Church, because it is his body - and we are its living parts. For this reason, a man must leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one body"

Don't feel like I needed to be cleaned before he took me to himself...

And what's more, the priest totally avoided the issue, choosing instead to preach on the other readings.

I have a HUGE problem with this and being part of an organisation that thinks we are not equal to men. What's more I cannot bring my daughters up to believe this.

DH however is staunch Catholic and wants ut to go together.

How can we find some common ground on this?

I agree with Twiglett.

Women and men should be equal, it is society and organised religion that says we are not. There is a reason we were made from a rib and not a toe. It is so that feelings towards a woman come from the heart. not to be commanded or downtrodden

If a man loves his wife, and she submits to him (submit btw does not mean to be his slave, she has the right to question him.) when a problem does come up they are able to discuss it. If a man loves his wife he won't push something on her that makes her unhappy. If a woman submits a man loves her more, so more often than not, a submissive wife is a happier one.

BTW, I think it is a huge cop out for your priest to not teach on this. It's like dropping a bomb and watching the aftermath.

The catholic church must be branching out now, I attended every sunday for 18 years and never heard anything outside the 4 gospels.

it is just down to how you wish to interpret it.
if like me you were brought up to believe you weren't just equal but you were better than men this type of wording might come as a shock.
you don't have to agree entirely with every age old principle quoted to support your dh in his religious beliefs. just bear in mind that your DH might not be able to back up his views on this, for some its just something you don't ever question.

Hi, I'm a Christian, I attend an evangelical anglican church. I am totally convinced by the claims of Jesus in the Bible (just a bit of background ).

This passage is a really difficult one, and one that many, many Christians struggle with. I know I do. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not understanding one part of the Bible does not mean you can't agree with the majority of it, and does not mean you can't be a Christian.

As I said, I struggle with this too, so don't have an easy pat answer (sadly!). But some things to think about:

1. The passage also gives a command to husbands to love their wives as their own body. If you think about what this means - really means - you will see that the husbands do not get let off lightly! A husband who is obeying this command would cerainly be a pleasure to submit to, I think. However, my DH is a Christian and a loving man, and is not always a pleasure to submit to (and must confess to not knowing exactly what this would look like anyway)so I know that doesn't completely solve the conundrum.

2.The Bible was written in a certain place at a certain time. So whilst I believe the Bible is true and is for all peope at all times, the context does need to be considered.

3. Different people interpret this passage in slightly different ways. There are some non-negotiable things in the Bible. Jesus died in our place, taking the punishment for our sins, and giving us the opportunity to have peace with God if we put our faith in Jesus - thats the essence of the Bible. If you believe that, you are a Christian, whatever you may think about the more periferal issues.

Perhaps you could talk to your priest about this issue? I daresay he avoided it because he doesn't know what to say! Perhaps you and your dh could find another Christian church that deals with the issue in a way you are both happy with? Or try your local Christian book shop and see if you can find something helpful to read. If you are a believer, pray and ask God to help you understand (and please let me know if you have any new insight!)

HTH
x Astro

i think it is the actual word 'submit' that is confusing or aggravating a lot of people.
when i questioned it (on several occasions) i used examples.
they answered by saying the man had full control of any decisions regarding family or finances and that women shouldn't interfere once the man had made his decision.
but still the skirt issue was the final straw.

chocy, where in the Bible does it say you must wear a skirt?

oh as i said further down my experience was with jehovahs witnesses. i did question that point but as usual a rather vacant look past over them.

i'm reading a book by i think william barrie (will look) he is catholic jesuit and talks about the female face of god without batting an eyelid.

second whoever said that bible is god as interpreted by man.

sorry chocy, didn't read properly
I def don't agree that men should have final say in all decisions as if the woman is a fool or a child. Thats not partenership at all is it!?

There is a great passage that really flies in the face of the idea of submission being 'trampling'. Its not from the same part of the Bible, so is not directly in answer to it, but I find it really helpful to see that, although I don't fully understand the submission thing, God thinks women are to be respected and admired as people who can work hard, make wise decisions and have responsibility for many things. Here it is:

Proverbs 31.10...

10 [c] A wife of noble character who can find?
She is worth far more than rubies.

11 Her husband has full confidence in her
and lacks nothing of value.

12 She brings him good, not harm,
all the days of her life.

13 She selects wool and flax
and works with eager hands.

14 She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.

15 She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.

16 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.

17 She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.

18 She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.

19 In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.

20 She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.

21 When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.

22 She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.

23 Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.

24 She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.

25 She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.

26 She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.

27 She watches over the affairs of her household
and does not eat the bread of idleness.

28 Her children arise and call her blessed;
her husband also, and he praises her:

29 "Many women do noble things,
but you surpass them all."

30 Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting;
but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.

31 Give her the reward she has earned,
and let her works bring her praise at the city gate

GOOD POST ASTROPHE (5PM ONE I MEAN)

thanks ja9...where do you stand?

astrophe, i generally shy away from debates / discussions like this. however since u asked, i have the verse wives submit to ur husband engraved inside my wedding ring. dh has husbands love your wives as christ loves the church. i think his is the hardest to obey as christ loves his church immeasurably. if dh is loving me immeasurably then obeying him will be easy as are hearts / minds are as one.

in reality we discuss most things and come to joint decisions. if god is the centre of your marriage then the rest falls into place, ime.

Gillian76 - you should come to our (Catholic) church - we don't have the second reading

seriously though - I am what you might call a staunch Catholic (or committed which is what I prefer) and agree with some of the other posters about the Bible being written in a certain time and, as such, not all the parts are relevant today. There are plenty of teachings in the bible which are simply not suitable for today's society (think of all the OT teaching on women's menstruation etc, lending of money, treatment of slaves etc. TBH, I'm surprised this reading is still in the missal but I should think your priest agrees otherwise he would have preached on it.
Where are you Gillian? Does the priest seem approachable?

It's Ephesians, not the Gospels. So secondary to Christ's own teachings, IMO.

Also, the version you are reading would be a translation - can't remember but original might have been Hebrew, then translated into Greek, then into Latin, then to English (16th century English at that). So the original word will have been translated several times before someone finally chose 'submit' as the English meaning. And 'submit' might have had different shades of meaning four centuries ago.

Ja9 - I'm with you on this one. Dh and I deliberately included this in our wedding vows - I said "obey".

I don't have a problem submitting to dh in our marriage because he always puts me, my feelings and my happiness first in the same way that Christ loves the Church (ie all Christians). Jesus died because his love for his bride (the church) was so great. I believe that dh loves me so much he would always put my life before his. He's definitely got the harder job in this deal.

This passage only makes sense once you have committed yourself to following Christ.

I had a problem with this during my teenage years - had feminist tendencies and listened to too much Tori Amos

But now I understand a little more about the beautiful illustration that marriage is; it reflects God's love for us and his relational personality.

THe Bible teaches that men and women are equal but they definitely have different roles. It's like a waltz or a salsa - someone has to lead or it doesn't work, but it doesn't make either partner less important.

whats wrong with having feminist tendencies?

good post bobsmum. i especially like your last line 'it's like a waltz or a salsa....@

Haven't read most of the threads, but here goes.
I'm catholic (with questioning leanings) but you really cant take Paul seriously when he gets chatting to the guys in his correspondance. Lets say hes a bit of a "mans man" so we can ignore him ,when he gets carried away on his poetic rambles. I know we didnt have paul as a reading (cant remember what we did have , but it wasnt problematic).
For the 2nd reading at our wedding we had the poem by kalil gilbran ,about being like two trees, you know the one. I think our priest thought it was cheesy but then it was really popular at the time and he must of heard it at every second wedding he conducted.

Moyasmum ... sorry, just passing by this thread while Bobsmum is away from the computer and I thought I'd come back on what a few people have said about St Paul. I just happen to be posting right after you, I don't mean to fire scripture from the hip right at you.

The thing is, you can't simply take or leave St Paul when you choose. St Peter himself said so. This is 2 Peter 3:16:

"as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." (Emphasis mine)

The Bible is not composed of categories of Scripture. There is no 'very scriptural' and 'a bit scriptural'. There's only Scripture, and St Peter clearly equates Paul's letters with Scripture.

Incidentally, while I'm here, I saw what Bobsmum wrote, and she's right. I would die for her.

I'm a Christian. My understanding is that the Bible is a tool through which we can understand what God is like, and where we can turn to for guidance. It isn't infallible. There is a danger that we end up worshipping the Bible, not God, and that is idolatory.

It's disputed whether Paul actually wrote Ephesians, and we will never know for certain. (Incidentally, it is now believed by many scholars that historically Jesus did not say a single word that appears in the whole Gospel of John). As has been said, whoever wrote it - Paul or others - was living in a patriarchal society amd was a fallible human being. So were those who decided to include it in the NT, and so is everyone - mostly men - who has translated it ever since.

I appreciate that there are people for whom this works, but for many it is a huge stumbling block to ever wanting to learn about Jesus or find their way to God. I would go further and say it denigrates how God intends us to be. We can't say what God is but we can say what God is like, and God is most definitely female as well as male in characteristics, Mother as well as Father. I have committed myself to Christ and this passage bears no relation to how I understand his teachings.

about you not being spiritually fed at church any more. I used to be an Anglo-Catholic and our pp used to change the reading whenever this came up! I've left church because, just like you, I could no longer feel comfortable raising our children in an unjust church - obviously Anglicans do have women priests, but the terrible rows over women bishops and gay people, not to mention the casual sexism of our local church (the all-women cleaning and flower rota, for example) drove me out. I'm still raising our children as Christians but not with any real dogma attached. So does your dh think you should be obeying him, or is it more that you are questioning the Church?

A good book (but one that will probably make you very angry) is Lavinia Byrne's autobiography on why she was forced to leave he rorder by the Catholic Church because she wrote about women and the priesthood. Another excellent book is 'Woman in the New Testament' by Bonnie Thurston, which shows how later translations have hidden the fact that there were women leaders in the early church, and is also excellent on teh cultural background to the NT.

HTH

that is so interesting nearly three. will look out those books. thanks

Nearlythree (Hope you are well BTW )

"The word was made flesh" - Jesus is the word.
"The word is God" - God is the word.
The word is the bible. Living life as is written in the Bible, is worshipping God.

Our Pastor's wife is also a Pastor. She is a very anointed woman. A vessel is just that! What's on the outside really does not count.

My church and I are obviously very blessed that our Pastor never, ever skirts this issue, and preaches on it alot. If you submit to your husband, out of love, he will not go against your wishes. It really is that simple.

Unless you agree with everything the bible says, literally, then the fact is you are taking or leaving bits as you find them - and the vast majority of Christians do so, even those that claim to follow it literally - because the bible contradicts itself often, being made up of so many different books.

So, I think it's OK to take or leave this, in your own heart. You may have to "submit" to DH in as much as going along with his request, but you can still teach your kids that the sexes are equal.

I loved that proverbs passage Guzzler - the bible can be so beautiful (and I speak as a non-believer)...

Very well, thank you, Xavielli. {smile] And you?

Our former pp didn't skirt the issue, he announced he'd changed the reading as he found that one offensive.

I live my life according to what I understand to be the teachings of Jesus Christ. If I then try to do that by taking the Bible as a whole, I find I contradict myself.

But I appreciate that for some, Christianity is very different.

Hope you enjoy the books, sophable.

i am definately with you on this one bobsparents and ja9 - scriptures are scriptures - no levels of holiness. its sometimes difficult to understand, but i don't believe the bible does contradict itself.

thanks everyone though for a good and respectful discussion