Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Can I ask those with a strong faith

23 replies

hellymelly · 22/04/2014 23:04

How you come to terms with terrible things happening to good people? I wish I could talk to my devoutly Christian Dad about this, but he died 18 months ago. I was in church on Easter Sunday, but I found myself at points in the service feeling sad and angry about a good friend who is dealing with a very serious illness. How do you reconcile this with a faith in a just and loving God? I saw that his faith was a great comfort to my Dad who had a long degenerative illness, but I have conflicting feelings about faith and about this issue in particular.

OP posts:
LaurieFairyCake · 22/04/2014 23:07

Because it's free will, illness and random crap.

God promises to be with us in everything including bereavement.

I've been sad all day as my oldest friends sister (who I also knew) died last night. I've been praying, crying, with God all day .

I wouldn't say it's that comforting yet since she died leaving very young children but it's liveable mostly.

McPhee · 22/04/2014 23:10

I'm struggling just now to be honest, but I have to hold on to God having a plan for all of us.

Lately though, I've had a lot of anger.

LaurieFairyCake · 22/04/2014 23:15

I've said it before but anger is a completely normal emotion and God is big enough and ugly enough to take us raging at him

Death is not fair or just , there's no bloody plan, just free will.

Living with death is part of being human and god is with us while we suffer.

McPhee · 22/04/2014 23:17

That's very true Laurie

gingerdodger · 23/04/2014 04:41

I don't think there is an easy answer to this. Terrible things happen to good people, I don't think this is always part of a master plan by God but sadly is part of life. Sometimes terrible things are as a result of what man inflicts on fellow humans, other times there is no ryhme or reason.

I do believe that life and existence is bigger than we are able to comprehend and I also believe that God sees the suffering and can offer much comfort and hope. That hope doesn't necessarily mean miracle cures or an end to the problem but can come from unexpected quarters and we may struggle to see it.

I am sorry I don't think that is able to fully answer your question, this is one of the most testing aspects of having a faith. Talking and prayer helps.

oohdaddypig · 23/04/2014 05:29

I wouldn't say I have a conventionally strong faith.

But I have faith. And I try to reconcile this one by accepting that a lot of what goes on here is out of "god's" control and down to fate and bad luck. And it is how we respond to these situations that help us grow.

But OP I'm with you on the anger bit. I can't actually sit through a conventional Christian ceremony anymore.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 23/04/2014 09:30

I'm sorry for your loss hellymelly

I'm not sure that as a Christian you can come to terms with bad things happening to people, good or otherwise. But faith means hanging onto God being with us through it all. For me that is what Easter is about. Prayer helps as does some shouting at God who is big enough to take it.

There is a difference in believing that God is just and that the world is fair. They are not the same at all. Freewill leads to unfairness and injustice. One of the things that Christians are called to do is work against the this and feed the hungry, visit the sick, shelter the homeless which makes me think we have some responsibility for the solution to the problems of this world rather than waiting for someone else to sort it out.

Not sure that helps but a strong faith or even a workmanlike one that wobbles at times is no insurance against the pain of life. It helps work with it but doesn't make it go away.

rabbitrisen · 23/04/2014 09:40

Is your friend a christian or not?

hellymelly · 23/04/2014 18:08

Thank you for the messages so far. They have made me feel really teary so this must be getting to me rather more than I thought.
rabbit- no, my friend is not Christian, it is just a personal thing, strangely i didn't rail against the injustice of it all when Dad got ill, or when he died even, as his faith was as much part of him as his green eyes, and it was a very positive thing in his life. I have had rather a lot of illness and death around me in the past two years, so maybe it is all hitting me now- I just feel terribly upset that my friend is dealing with this, she has a very young baby, and it seems so cruel. It does help reading all your perspectives though, because I usually feel uplifted by Church, and I did feel that when I ame out, but I felt disconnected and upset through the service.

OP posts:
BaronDent · 23/04/2014 18:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Weegiemum · 23/04/2014 18:16

No one ever promised that life would be fair. But Jesus promised he'd always be with us.

It's not easy, and I've struggled a lot with disability and illness. But I keep on coming back to my faith. There's a bit in John's gospel where Martha asks "Lord, to whom shall we go. You have the words of eternal life". And that sums it up for me. I'm not sure that I want to believe in God, sometimes, but I can't think of any other option for me.

rabbitrisen · 23/04/2014 18:26

What would your dad have said op? What did he say about his own illness?

Northernlurker · 23/04/2014 18:42

For me the part of the Bible that makes most sense is of this is in 1 Corinthians and I'm putting it in full here because I think it helps to read it as a whole piece.

' If I had the gift of being able to speak in other languages without learning them and could speak in every language there is in all of heaven and earth, but didn’t love others, I would only be making noise. If I had the gift of prophecy and knew all about what is going to happen in the future, knew everything about everything, but didn’t love others, what good would it do? Even if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, I would still be worth nothing at all without love. If I gave everything I have to poor people, and if I were burned alive for preaching the Gospel but didn’t love others, it would be of no value whatever.

Love is very patient and kind, never jealous or envious, never boastful or proud, 5 never haughty or selfish or rude. Love does not demand its own way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges and will hardly even notice when others do it wrong. It is never glad about injustice, but rejoices whenever truth wins out. If you love someone, you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost. You will always believe in him, always expect the best of him, and always stand your ground in defending him.^

All the special gifts and powers from God will someday come to an end, but love goes on forever. Someday prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge—these gifts will disappear. Now we know so little, even with our special gifts, and the preaching of those most gifted is still so poor. But when we have been made perfect and complete, then the need for these inadequate special gifts will come to an end, and they will disappear.

It’s like this: when I was a child I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I became a man my thoughts grew far beyond those of my childhood, and now I have put away the childish things. In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face. Now all that I know is hazy and blurred, but then I will see everything clearly, just as clearly as God sees into my heart right now

There are three things that remain—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.'

So 'In the same way, we can see and understand only a little about God now, as if we were peering at his reflection in a poor mirror; but someday we are going to see him in his completeness, face-to-face' - what that means to me is an explanation of what people are referring to when they talk about God's plan for our lives. Basically there is a plan but we aren't able to perceive it and in any case our life on earth is only a staging point on this journey. It's very easy to sound trite when talking about this and that's one of the things people resent most about Christians - a tendency to smugly assert we've got it all sorted and nothing bad will happen. Well that's nonsense. Bad things happen to Christians all the time. I believe God is with us, I believe in miracles and in the comfort His love brings but I can tell you one thing for sure. God doesn't pick and choose who gets the miracles based on what we do. Can you imagine how terrible that would be - if you could basically buy a miracle by praying hard enough and every time something bad happens its therefore your fault because you didn't pray enough....eeek.

Having a faith is relying on something you cannot see nor can you rationalise it. If you could prove it you wouldn't need faith, you could rely on what you can see. We have the evidential proof of the Gospels but even then it's in faith that you accept what truly happened.You can make the resurrection and the miracles of Christ fit in to a conspiracy theory of rational explanation without much trouble. It's only faith that leads you to say ' Christ died on the cross for my sins and then rose again'

I am reading a very powerful blog at the moment written by a woman whose son, short of a miracle, is dying from a brain tumour. Her faith is amazing. She desperately wants to keep her boy with her and see his life live out over the next 80 years but she is putting her hand in that of God and saying 'not my will but yours'. As I go through my life that's what I'm trying to do. Doesn't mean I accept the tragedies and the grief and the pain and the fear with a shrug of the shoulders. I don't. I get angry and I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. But I know that's sort of the point. I do not understand, I simply have to hold on to my faith and know that death is not the end. I am redeemed and I will see my redeemer face to face one day and in the words of Revelation 'He will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor pain. All of that has gone forever'

hellymelly · 23/04/2014 22:51

Northernlurker thank you for taking the trouble to write all that out. I am going to think about it tonight and read through again tomorrow. I really appreciate hearing others' views of this, as it has been niggling away at me for a while.

OP posts:
Northernlurker · 24/04/2014 13:25

Sorry it was so long! Hope you are feeling ok today.

hellymelly · 26/04/2014 10:48

Thank you, I really do appreciate it. Friend had very bad news yesterday regarding her illness, so I am thinking of going to church tomorrow (I am only an occasional church goer) to see how I feel and to get my head round the news.

OP posts:
madhairday · 26/04/2014 13:59

Very powerful post Northern - I would like to read that blog, would you mind pming it to me?

helly I am so very sorry and sad to hear about your friend and the situation she is in. Sometimes there is no answer, certainly no answer that will satisfy us, in this life. So much that is unknown. I find that many of the psalms voice how I often feel when they rant and rail against God for seemingly allowing injustice, illness, death etc. Like weegie I live with chronic disease, and there are days I wonder where God is in it all, days where pain seems to overcome faith. I've got to go into hospital on monday for 14 days treatment and I just feel sad and angry about it.

But then I remember Jesus. I remember that God is not far away and far displaced from our suffering and pain, but that in Jesus God suffered the greatest injustice and the pain of many, and in that suffering is able to not only identify with us but be with us in it - I love the word 'abide' as in the hymn 'abide with us' because it implies something greater than merely being alongside someone for a while - it speaks of living it with that person, speaks of a God who is in that pain with you, living it, feeling it, weeping with you.

It doesn't answer the question 'why'. But my experience is that in the very depths of pain God reaches out and I find a depth of peace that is unimaginable. I think of our lives as living in the 'now and the not yet' - living in the broken mess of the world, fallen, skewed, in pain, but getting glimpses of the not yet, which is what God's kingdom looks like in its' perfection. Sometimes the 'not yet' breaks into the now in great wonder, as in when people are healed, sometimes dramatically. It's like a window on what it should be. Often the 'not yet' breaks into the now in small moments, small droplets of grace where we have a glimpse of God in God's love and the hope God gives. So how I cope with having both a strong faith and a degenerative disease is through those moments of the 'not yet' and through a suffering God who knows and who abides.

I pray that you find some peace and that your friend will find something of the God who abides.

Thanks
springydaffs · 27/04/2014 15:55

Sorry to split hairs, hair (arf), but I don't think God 'reaches out' - imo he is right there, it isn't a step or a leap for him, he is RIGHT THERE with us in the pain, incomprehension, anger, grief.

imo we're not expected to go along with it all meek and mild: that would be just weird. Have it out with him - not only can he 'take' it, it's what he wants ie a full relationship, no holding back. But he is with us all the way, and some, if we let him. His comfort is the real deal, hits the spot completely.

To answer your question: horrible stuff happens to everybody, good or not. Jesus suffered the full gamut while he was here, and he was good. yy he was here to do something in particular but that didn't include all the horrible stuff that wasn't necessarily part of the end plan. Joseph was done over in ways that didn't seem necessary to the end plan eg he was left in prison for two years when he could have been out, only somebody forgot him.

It stabilises me to believe that God is good. An awful lot isn't good but he is. You can quite see why he wanted to rub us out and start again (the flood) because he was so horrified at what we get up to, the consequences. Bad stuff has been released into the world and we all get it.

I'm so sorry for your friend and the pain this causes you all. I hope she, and you, can have the same peace and assurance your dad had xx

shushpenfold · 27/04/2014 15:59

Northern - could you post the link to that blog?

Thanks xx

madhairday · 27/04/2014 17:27

Definitely springy - that's what I was getting at with using the language of 'abiding' - a God who is right there in the centre of it all with us.

Reaching out was kind of a figure of speech I guess, because to me sometimes it feels like God reaches across a space to me....but of course is in the space with me too. does that make any sense? Grin

SchrodingersFerret · 27/04/2014 18:59

It helps me to remember that Jesus came to suffer - that He didn't come to take suffering away, but to somehow 'sanctify' or made suffering holy. Have been really wrestling with this over Easter for a number of reasons.

ZingWatermelon · 27/04/2014 19:20

I'm struggling with praying.

Thanks for this thread.

springydaffs · 28/04/2014 00:00

Yes, he is utterly present, 'a very present help in times of trouble' - not a concept, a reality. He is right THERE; in it with you. He never went away, busy with something else. I know it was a figure of speech, mad, and perhaps it does suggest a perceived distance somehow. ime it is almost as though he abides in suffering (though I'm not suggesting that's all he is about at all - he does joy rather well, too). ime of being in the fire, he's right there waiting, almost - he got there first, he was already there.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread