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Philosophy/religion

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Forgiveness

36 replies

niminypiminy · 22/03/2014 09:47

The thread on Christians and personal responsibility has now gone somewhere else, and I'm busy today and can't come back to it until later, but am just dropping in to post a link to a really interesting article by Desmond Tutu about forgiveness. It's most germane to the original discussion on that thread, and I hope people might find it interesting.

link

A couple of extracts:
Forgiveness is not dependent on the actions of others. Yes, it is certainly easier to offer forgiveness when the perpetrator expresses remorse and offers some sort of reparation or restitution. Then, you can feel as if you have been paid back in some way. You can say: "I am willing to forgive you for stealing my pen, and after you give me my pen back, I shall forgive you." This is the most familiar pattern of forgiveness. We don't forgive to help the other person. We don't forgive for others. We forgive for ourselves. Forgiveness, in other words, is the best form of self-interest.

Forgiveness takes practice, honesty, open-mindedness and a willingness (even if it is a weary willingness) to try. It isn't easy. Perhaps you have already tried to forgive someone and just couldn't do it. Perhaps you have forgiven and the person did not show remorse or change his or her behaviour or own up to his or her offences – and you find yourself unforgiving all over again. It is perfectly normal to want to hurt back when you have been hurt. But hurting back rarely satisfies. We think it will, but it doesn't. If I slap you after you slap me, it does not lessen the sting I feel on my own face, nor does it diminish my sadness over the fact that you have struck me. Retaliation gives, at best, only momentary respite from our pain. The only way to experience healing and peace is to forgive. Until we can forgive, we remain locked in our pain and locked out of the possibility of experiencing healing and freedom, locked out of the possibility of being at peace.

... The simple truth is, we all make mistakes, and we all need forgiveness. There is no magic wand we can wave to go back in time and change what has happened or undo the harm that has been done, but we can do everything in our power to set right what has been made wrong. We can endeavour to make sure the harm never happens again.

There are times when all of us have been thoughtless, selfish or cruel. But no act is unforgivable; no person is beyond redemption. Yet, it is not easy to admit one's wrongdoing and ask for forgiveness. "I am sorry" are perhaps the three hardest words to say. We can come up with all manner of justifications to excuse what we have done. When we are willing to let down our defences and look honestly at our actions, we find there is a great freedom in asking for forgiveness and great strength in admitting the wrong. It is how we free ourselves from our past errors. It is how we are able to move forward into our future, unfettered by the mistakes we have made.

OP posts:
capsium · 22/03/2014 09:59

Lovely words. I agree.

I must admit I get quite frightened when people appear very unforgiving. Some standards seem to be very high, with terribly complex rules to cover eventualities. Who can blame people for not understanding fully? We live, learn and hopefully grow but all have strengths and weaknesses.

Forgiveness is necessary, the absence of it leads to despair...

RandomMess · 22/03/2014 10:07

All I can add to his amazing words is that sometimes when a hurt it very great and deep is that you can't forgive in your own strength/ability. However if you have a faith and a willingness to forgive God can give you the compassion (???? - not sure if that's the correct word) and ability to forgive anything.

I had desperately tried to forgive something for years, I had an understanding and bore no hatred/anger to the other party but I eventually leant on God with it and truly forgave - the difference was amazing. The matter still hurts/causes me sadness at times but the perpetrators are truly forgiven.

crescentmoon · 22/03/2014 11:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cuxibamba · 22/03/2014 11:12

I agree with most of that. However, by not forgiving, I can protect myself in many ways, because forgiving when they either don't say sorry or so t mean it means it hurts more next time I think, as your feelings about them start from a more positive place and therefore have longer to fall.

RandomMess · 22/03/2014 11:30

Cuxibamba forgiving someone doesn't mean you have to leave the way open to let them hurt you again. Sometimes the right thing to do is truly forgive but move on/distance yourself from someone that is very damaging to you.

capsium · 22/03/2014 11:36

I get torn sometimes. I can forgive but I want to have Hope in the repentance of the other person. I want to be able to look and see change. Sometimes there is change, but it takes a while sometimes to believe what you are seeing and trust again.

capsium · 22/03/2014 11:37

Living with too many negative associations is not good.

thegreenheartofmanyroundabouts · 22/03/2014 12:27

What a good article.

DioneTheDiabolist · 22/03/2014 12:45

Wise words from a wonderful man. I was fortunate to meet him a number of years ago. He exuded peace and comfort. His presence was the embodiment of pouring oil on troubled waters.Smile

atthestrokeoftwelve · 23/03/2014 07:12

It's all just words though. Do I forgive my ex husband for beatng me? No.
Have I moved on with my life? Yes. Does it continue to trouble me? No.
Do I even give it any thought? No.
Am I now as stronger person for having those difficult times? Yes.

Do I even need to forgive him? I don't think so. He was a rat and shall remain so, he has not left me lasting damage, in fact I think I am a better person for surviving such a trauma. Why do I need to "forgive"?

cheapskatemum · 23/03/2014 21:04

ATSO12 - try it, you might be amazed at the effect is has on you. As RandomMess says, "the difference was amazing".

atthestrokeoftwelve · 24/03/2014 06:46

I have no need cheap. My life is abundant.

capsium · 24/03/2014 09:58

atthestroke How important do you think it is to regret wrong doings and ask for forgiveness though? If someone was sincere in their regret would you still not forgive them?

I think I am asking what is your way of moving forward after mistakes are made, especially in our relationships with other people. Everyone makes mistakes all the time, we are learning. I would hate to think my mistakes could not be forgiven and that was it. I can't imagine how to parent for example without being able to forgive.

I sure you must forgive people to some degree, atthestroke, otherwise you would be alone, but then do you forgive yourself for your own mistakes? If you don't that would be miserable.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 24/03/2014 10:05

Of course I forgive- and other people forgive me too- but I don't find it necessary to forgive everyone for all acts. Some things are unforgivable but I don't carry unforgiveness as a burden.

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:08

For example if a child did something that was just a bad idea, dangerous, for example, do you not think it important to point out to them why it is a bad idea (within their understanding of course)? And then, do you not hope they will understand and regret what they did, acknowledge that it was a bad idea? So that they do not want^ to do it again? Then when they have shown they have acknowledged this are you not satisfied? They did what they did through lack of thought or knowledge, which has been rectified.

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:09

Sorry x post. atthestroke

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:15

I think unforgiveness can be a burden, if you have to live in close proximity to those who have wronged you.

I acknowledge you seem to have a sense of scale of the wrong doing atthestroke and it is possible to have no contact with people who have wronged you.

However as a society I think people who have done serious crimes are still in existence, so we cannot totally forget about them all. I don't like the death penalty as a solution either.

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:18

^Don't get me wrong I think some people need to be kept in prisons, if releasing them would be dangerous to society, due to their (continuing) violent behaviour for example.

atthestrokeoftwelve · 24/03/2014 10:21

I don't support the death penalty- luckily I don't have to have any contact with those who have wronged me. My ex husband raped and beat me, even after I found the courage to leave he promised he would track me down and murder me. I lived in fear for several years.
With time that threat is no longer.
I don't want to forgive him, but I don't carry that unforgiveness as a burden. In fact I feel stronger because of my experiences, it has made me a stronger person, a better mother.

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:26

I can understand that atthestoke, I think.

Personally I do forgive people for wrong doing, even when they have shown no Repentance, on the assumption they don't know just how wrong or harmful their actions were.

Without their Repentance though, trusting them would be impossible.

capsium · 24/03/2014 10:29

For example, in your shoes atthestroke, I would probably think you husband had something seriously wrong with him.

niminypiminy · 24/03/2014 10:29

I can absolutely understand why you don't want to forgive you ex-husband, atthestrokeoftwelve. I don't anyone has the right to demand that other people forgive what seems to them unforgiveable. If you have made a new life for yourself after terrible events, and have left them behind, you have done an amazing thing.

I think many people find that forgiveness heals them of corroding anger, grief and bitterness, and that hard as it is, it enables them to leave terrible things in the past. But it is not for anyone to demand that they should do so -- it would be a massive impertinence.

OP posts:
capsium · 24/03/2014 10:31

^Not demanding by the way, please don't think that. Just reflecting and sharing.

niminypiminy · 24/03/2014 10:36

Capsium, sorry wasn't posting at you -- just reflecting on what atthestrokeoftwelve shared.

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ListenToTheLady · 24/03/2014 10:38

I read the article, it was beautifully written and convincing, and I wished I could forgive in the way he described. I am quite forgiving generally, and try to understand why people do what they do – but I have a kind of threshold. If I get pushed past my limit with a person, I tend to think "Oh f*ck this" and then there's no way back, I can't stand them any more.

But I think there are two kinds of forgiveness – theoretical forgiveness where you let go of the blame and any feelings of vengefulness, and the kind where you actually communicate it to the person. I can "forgive" my dad for example, in my heart, for the abuses he committed, because I know he was deeply damaged himself, and it's easier to live my life if I see it that way. But that doesn't mean I want to see him or tell him "I forgive you" – because he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, he thinks I'm a psycho bitch and he has no understanding of how to behave. It would be miserable and not bring any kind of closure or resolution.