genuine question from atheist - view on Christanity and personal responsibility

[kentishgirl]

Hi - promise this isn't just Christian-baiting.

I've come to the conclusion that Christianity is a substitute for having a personal conscience or taking personal responsibility. Being a Christian is like having a 'get out of jail free card' in that you are taught God will forgive you anything. So you can do anything, as bad as you like, go and pray for forgiveness and move on, slate wiped clean, feeling great about yourself. So it doesn't matter if you do wrong. As an atheist, if I do something wrong, it's always with me, it's always on my conscience, so that makes me always try to do the right thing.
I didn't always think this way. It's the only way I can make any sense of something that happened to me at the hands of a couple of serious, committed Christians. One of them even works full time for a church. They did something terrible to me but have shown no remorse, no guilt, and made no attempt to make things right with me. I'm positive they prayed for guidance at the time and then forgiveness afterwards, and now all's good in their world, while I'm still dealing with the fall-out.
Am I really wrong in interpreting Christianity in this way? Isn't it true that it enables horrible behaviour by teaching you that if you do wrong, all you've got to do is pray for forgiveness afterwards, and you are ok, never mind the effect of what you did? Basically if God is your only judge, and forgiveness is guaranteed, it gives you permission to act like a right bastard as long as you say sorry to God afterwards? there's no personal responsibility for what you have done.

Here in Scotland we have had quite a fire and brimstone church domination. In my town church elders wre sent out on a Sunday morning armed with birch branches and would search homes looking for any dissenters who had avoided church- they would be beaten as they cowered for avoiding god's love.
Christmas was banned by the church here for over 400 years, it only became a public holiday in the 1950s and anyone caught celabrating christmas could be prosecuted by law. Happy days.

bluepen: "Throughout the bible and beyond, obeying is crucial"

As is very clear from the ten commandments. The price of bruising his ego is indeed high. If he exists, of course, and there is no evidence for that. So the crux of it is that we have to blindly obey the commandments from the assertions of desert dwellers from at least 2000 years ago?

capsium: "And antivirals are not offered for every virus."

What is the point here? Are you suggesting that any virus that we cannot currently treat with antivirals is a demon?

Are you moving the goalposts? You have strongly implied that demons are spiritual beings that cause symptoms that appear are very similar to mental illness. Are you now changing that definition?

In the Bible a lot of, what we would describe as patterns of thinking, is described in terms of spirit. The spirit of worry and unbelief etc. I was thinking in terms of this, anxiety does cause a lot of stress which can escalate into something that would be diagnosed clinically.

As a modern reader I think it important too caught up on terminology, centuries ago people used different terminologies to the current day, the point is anxiety if not a good thing if it overwhelms somebody. The closest analogy I can give today is with Zeitgeist, and how cultural values can affect people's thinking.

^In terms of spirit being used as a descriptor in modern language.

capsium: "Stress is said to be bad for the immune system. Reassurance, rest and kindness, good (Godly) things, are said to be good for stress"

Are you suggesting that stress can only be managed by godly things? Reassurance, rest and kindness can only come from believing in a god?

No that good things are also Godly ones.

capsium: "showing your own cognitive biases there."

Where? I don't know what this is in response to. Did I say assert that there was a pattern in something and it fits my pre-conceived idea?

capsium: "Well if you had exactly the same understanding and knowledge as me, we would think the same....?"

You mean if I was willing to suspend my credulity?

The bible is far more than the 10 commandments!
That is in book 2. There are about another 64 books to go!

umm. Dont think I need to redefine loving. I think that my last few posts are explicit enough.

atthestrokeoftwelve. That is very far from what it should have been.

You mean if I was willing to suspend my credulity?
Yes.

Where? I don't know what this is in response to. Did I say assert that there was a pattern in something and it fits my pre-conceived idea?

This was pages back, so I cannot see what comment of yours that was in reference too. However I believe that everyone has cognitive biases, I call a lot of mine Faith (the ones which concern my Biblical beliefs), I choose to have them and I am aware of them. IMO, not to be aware of your own cognitive biases, is ignorance.

atthestroke In the times you describe I could easily have been accused of heresy. Someone did a study of my family's tree and a lot of my ancestors were accused of heresy and witchcraft. Others held positions of high importance within the church. I am thankful for religious freedom.

bluepen- that is your view however. Those with religious power at the time "knew" they were right. as you do.

Caps if not being aware of your cognitive bias is ignorance what the hell is being aware of it and viewing it positively!?!?

head Bliss!

Seriously though it is self knowledge.

It is very liberating to know that we cannot know everything and that it is OK to still make decisions like this. I used to tie myself in knots with 'analysis paralysis'.

Later on I have realised one of the amazing things in life, and something we have over machines and processes, is that we can draw connections subconsciously, and be right, and be right more quickly. There are some people that are very good at calculus can beat computers due to this ability. I believe it is God given, we are amazing creatures.

However there is a duality. Some people are unaware of some biases that they possess that are very wrong and destructive. They behave badly out of ignorance.

So yes, I do talk about good and bad / evil. God and Satan. Not everything is positive in this world. However I believe through Christ we can achieve redemption. Through Christ we can be made aware of our ignorant biases and do something about them.

Being a Christian provides an opportunity to learn about such things. It is not the only opportunity but it does provide a belief system through which you can examine your own actions and question your biases.

Tbh I believe all people have some negative biases.

I know I don't know everything, and I now find it unsatisfying to make stuff up for the gaps in my knowledge. I'm happy to say 'I don't know and that's fine.'

headinhands But the Faith provides you with direction, in terms of decisions making. Otherwise, when faced with a 'I don't know', you would be just making a random guess or gamble.

If you think in terms of a decision that fitted the Ellsberg paradox:

It could be Faith that made a person successfully gain more. It could be Faith that motivated them into choosing the option with indeterminable odds but a greater return over the choice with determinable odds and a lesser return.

But we don't make decisions randomly in life. We may have been in a similar situation, or other life experiences can act as a guide. We may speak to loved ones or even ask advice on a chat forum.

Sort of what I am trying to say atthestroke. You make a choice, based on your cognitive biases and other peoples. Which could be making a connection with past experiences, other people's etc. You can be aware of these, which I would term faith (if non religious) Faith (if religious)* or be ignorant of the biases entirely.

*Providing I do not make more typos!

Like when I referred to the 'Game of Thrones' quote (which I still have not found) concerning how you can live a thousand lives through reading books. I term reading the Bible as one very important bit of reading matter.

But the Faith provides you with direction, in terms of decisions making. Otherwise, when faced with a 'I don't know', you would be just making a random guess

Can you give me an example of a decision I can't make using secular reasoning? And Caps, you have made a random guess because there's no evidence for what you believe.