Atheist parents with children at church school...

[Owzat]

...how has it worked out for you?

We're in the process of applying for a reception place for our eldest, and it's likely that she'll end up at a church of England school because that's what there is local to us.

Although the schools seem really nice, the information leaflets given to us do mention "Christian values" and the children attend "collective worship" and celebrate Christian festivals etc.

I'm not really sure how to feel about this really. It's a bit out of my comfort zone, but I don't know what it would really be like once my children were there. I know that you have the option to withdraw a child from assemblies etc, but I'm a bit uneasy about singling them out so obviously, and I'm not sure it's really necessary.

Is anybody in a similar situation? How has it worked out for you and your children? Have you encountered any problems?

I'd be really interested to hear people's views

If your child went to a state school they would still have to attend collective acts of worship, so probably not going to be vastly different. Our non-faith village primary celebrate all the main festivals at one or other of the churches here. I've come to the conclusion that (much as it riles me) you can't avoid religion and it is part of our cultural make-up, but i will remain my child's educator as much as the school and will endeavour to make sure he knows the difference between fact and belief.

Incidentally, i was withdrawn from religious assemblies when i was small, and wasn't allowed to be in nativity plays. I don't think it scarred me for life but yes, you do feel singled out and i didn't really understand the reasons behind it at the time. I remember when i was 6/7 a boy in my class asked me if my dad was jewish - i said, no, he's english - that's how much i understood! I also seemed to only be withdrawn intermittently, which i assume was down to the school not taking it too seriously.

I have no problem with teaching about religions in school, but i do not see why, in a country of such diverse beliefs (and none) that it is still deemed necessary to include an act of worship in a non-faith school. But as things are, i unfortunately can't see how you can avoid it, whatever your choice of school.

Hello,
I agree with the post above and will add that sometimes depending on the school there can be more religious worship and study at a community school than a Faith school.
I do think if there is a lot of worship you either have to go with it or be prepared to withdraw your child, unless it is a non faith school imo you shouldn't complain as it is there for those who do believe.
My ds2 had to go to a Catholic school for a while as really no other choice, we are not Catholic and I just taught our belief at home and showed how both Catholic and our faith differed.

Hi Owzat. My dds went to the local school which is a VC CofE school. I am a Christian married to an atheist, but our school decision was based purely on vicinity (and the fact that it's a really great school). As far as I can tell (I don't have a lot to compare it with) there was relatively little Church input into this school... Assemblies were 'broadly Christian' (this meant, in practice, the odd religious song being sung) and the main difference from other schools, I think, was that once a week either the vicar or a youth worker from the local church came in to lead assembly. You could probably pull your kids out of that one assembly per week without them feeling too singled out, as this was separate from the kinds of assemblies where prizes were given out etc. so I don't think your kids would feel they were missing out. Or you could just leave them in and take it as part of their general education (after all, knowing some of the key Bible stories helps with understanding lots of things in Western culture...). The latter was my DH's approach. In RE lessons my kids learnt (a little bit) about Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, etc as well as Christianity (as far as I know this is part of the National Curriculum). So in lessons there was no privileging of one religion over any other - it was just the once-a-week assemblies that were explicitly Christian. (Oh, and they did have a nativity play of course, but I think most schools do that.)

Hope this is reassuring.

Yes, I have the same situation.

It isn't ideal, and I don't want to withdraw DC from element of schooling because I don't want them to look different.

Why is it that our schools are intent at teaching our kids about their differences, rather than teaching them how they are all the same! www.secularism.org.uk/news/2013/12/new-research-reveals-socio-economic-segregation-impact-of-faith-schools (both in terms of religion and "class").

I have given my DC the option to be removed from lessons where religion is taught as "fact" and we discuss their options fairly regularly.

DC1 gets really annoyed with some lessons, complaining that when asked "what defines a Christian" other children say "honesty" and "generosity". DC1 always challenges this by saying that Christians can be dishonest and nasty people, just like any other person, and that non-religious people can be honest and generous. This makes me feel very proud!

Just make sure you give good balance of science and real facts at home. Teach respect and tolerance, but critical thinking. Fairly regularly my kids are asked to do exercises like "colour in everything on this picture that god made". I often joke with them that they should hand back the un-coloured sheet, and they seem very up for this, but too scared that they will be told off for being naughty - this makes me feel pretty angry. All understandable when they get told to bow their heads and put their hands together to pray, or they get told off.

I can't believe we are actually living in 2013!

I went to an assembly training day last week and we were reminded that schools have to provided a daily assembly of a broadly Christian character. That is the law and most of them flout it.

The praying bit is a tricky one as we know that most children don't pray and it is totally alien to them. How I manage this and how it was advised we lead it at the training day, is to say that we are going to be very quiet now and I'm going to say some prayers and if you want to make this prayer your own you can say 'amen' at the end. This means that those children of different faiths can have a bit of quiet, and it may be the only quiet they get in the day, and the decision to own the prayer is entirely their own. They learn to respect each other as being loud and silly and chatty when everyone else is being quiet is not respecting others.

I would also challenge a teacher who is defining Christians as honest and generous as this is sloppy thinking. Christians are people who live in relationship with and worship the triune God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The fruits of the spirit - kindness, gentleness, self control come about as a result of that relationship. One of the most positive parts of recent RE teaching is that it includes philosophy which means that there are more people joining the awkward squad as thinkers which is all to the good. I made my RE teacher's life very tricky.

I'd agree with that, Greenheart. My atheist DD1, who's now in Year 9, suddenly loves RE, because it has become much more philosophical and she does love a good debate!

I have to say that technodad's experience is not mine - even in a CofE school, the only overtly Christian aspect was in the assembly once a week. In homework and lessons all religions were given equal weight (and time in the curriculum) and none was taught as 'truth'.

Honestly? It IS different to a non faith school. Both my dc started at a faith school, I have moved them to another school now. As an Atheist I HATED IT!!

I hated the fact that my children were brainwashed into believing things I disagreed with. My advice would be ignore any faith schools when choosing a school. I wish I'd known beforehand. I would suggest those saying 'oh it's not that bad' are comfortable around Christianity, if not Christian themselves. If you know you don't believe in it it can be very hard when your children come home telling you things as fact (eg. god made the earth. sorry, no he didn't, stop telling my kids that and teach them some science please!)

A faith school is different from a church school though.
Our local is CofE, and whilst, given the choice, I'd prefer a more secular approach, it isn't a problem for atheist parents such as we are. Kids know what to take with a pinch of salt!

I am of atheist parents and went to church schools, I am also an atheist.

It's your parents who get the major say in what you turn out as in terms of religion, it's an inheritance. I have no objection to my child being involved with religion - it's a bit like Father Christmas to me. Something you can believe in as a child until you realise that it's all bollocks. When my child comes home telling me things like God created the earth, I correct the notion in a gentle way. Even most Christians don't believe that God literally created the world. It's very easy to say that some people believe certain things and others don't and even my five year old (who does believe in fairies, gods and superheroes) knows that different people believe different things and that it's up to her what she believes.

OK, I don't know the difference between a faith school and a church school. My dcs were at a c of e. I think a lot of the parents there take the same approach as EnB76. But as the op said she felt uncomfortable I wanted to point out what will happen.

I'm in a similar position, I'm an atheist and DS1 is in yr4 of a CofE primary. Not by choice, this is the only school in the village and all neighbouring villages also have CofE schools.

I have no problem in principle with him attending church / reading bible stories etc as I would like him to make his own informed choices about faith when he's ready i.e. Not base his decisions on ignorance about religion.

I have a massive problem with faith schools, they are divisive and blatantly discriminate. The fact that there are state controlled faith schools is appalling but I'm not going to change that. And even if you do find a non-faith school, they have.to hold assemblies that are broadly Christian in nature anyway.

DS has not been brain washed, if anything, attending a faith school has made him less likely to be a Christian.

Its not ideal but it probably won't make much of a difference.

It entirely depends on the school. There is no general rule that says church schools = teach them creation, non-church school = teach them evolution. Particualry when the church is C of E. (Catholic VA, rather than VC, schools may be more religious, I don;t know.)

My kids went to a C of E VA primary and secondary. At primary they had short assembly every morning. Prayers were of the Bill and Ted 'be nice to each other' variety, NOT Jesus-worshipping at all. The local church's youth pastr came in once a fortnight to talk about whatever local charity the church was supporting that week, not to read bible stories. They went to the church once at Christmas and once at Easter. All other religions were taught.

There was absolutely no indoctrination into Christianity whatsoever.

There will inevitably some non-church schools which have a VERY Christian nature though.

You cannot tell just by whether the school is categorised as LEA controlled, VC, VA or Academy. You need to visit the individual school.

Oh and be aware that a change of head and / or governors in any tupe of school can change the religious ethos of the school.

I think titchy is spot on with it depending on the school/headteacher. We've heard stories on here before about non-faith schools pushing the headteacher's personal beliefs.

On average though you are more likely to get a faith school insisting on actual worship of their one true god and less emphasis on the other religions out there. It's not teaching them about religion if it's just the one true one they hear about and they come away sure that all the other religions are inferior.

Investigate beforehand and be wary of trips to the zoo

Some CofE schools do more CofE stuff than others. Ours is a small school, the head is a practising christian. They say grace before they sit down to their packed lunches, prayers at assembly, a hymn, and they been on a visit to the church twice this half term, to see our vicar baptise a doll and learn about the colours of the liturgy.

Its fine by us as we are a clergy family. But I know there are others who have been slightly taken aback - they expected it would just be Our Father and a hymn in the morning like when we were all at school. Its a bit more than that and our atheist friends are having to field lots of questions about baptism and heaven etc that they didn't quite anticipate.