Prayers for the dead?

[MandMand]

What little knowledge I have of Christian theology comes mainly from studying for a history degree, so I wondered if anyone could explain a few things for me.

Watching the news this morning, the reporter said that "prayers for the dead" would take place later at Glasgow Cathedral. I thought that the idea of praying for the souls of the dead went out with the Reformation, when chantries and monasteries were abolished? If Christians no longer believe in purgatory, why pray for the dead?

Is it intended more as an act if remembrance, or as comfort for the living, that as anything that can "help" the dead? Sorry if I'm not expressing this well.

Also, do modern Christians believe that individual souls go to heaven as soon as people die, or do they believe in a general Resurrection of all the dead at the Day of Judgement at the end of time?

That is a big question and there are several schools of thought on it, with big names but i can't remember what they are called. I am not sure if there is an official line by the c of e. Sorry , not much use!

I am Catholic and I believe to pray for the soul of a dead person so they can lose their sin and then they can be in heaven. I believe it can make their journey to heaven quicker. I don't think you go straight there. Of course it is also a great comfort to those still living.

We say: Eternal rest, grant unto them O Lord and let perpetual light shine upon them, may they rest in peace, amen. May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.

I'm Catholic too. I have always been taught that if/when a person who has prayed for the dead during their time on earth gets to heaven many people will walk towards them and thank them. They will be the souls of the people they have prayed for when they were alive.
As a Catholic I believe in purgatory as an actual place. It is where souls go after death if God judges they are not yet suitable for heaven. It isn't hell but it is a place of discomfort where we go until God judges we are ready for heaven. One way for these souls to get to heaven more quickly if for those still alive on earth to pray for them. The souls in heaven can do nothing themselves to get to heaven quicker. When all they want it to be with God this makes purgetory even more unpleasant. Hope I explained clearly.

This is really interesting, I didn't realise that Purgatory was still part of Catholic belief. I may have confused it with the idea of limbo, where unbaptised babies were supposed to go. Am I right in thinking that limbo rather than purgatory has been "abolished", for want of a better word?

As ever there is a range of thought.

As people have said, if you are Catholic, it is normal to pray for the souls of the dead.

If you call yourself protestant or Presbyterian you don't.

Some Anglicans do, some don't. You are right that the Reformation got rid of it for the protestant churches and you will find that in the 39 articles, but the influence of the Oxford movement in the 19th century brought back many catholic practices into some parts of the Anglican church.

Which cathedral? If catholic, of course. If pisky, not necessarily.

I'm not sure about limbo being abolished, I'm a bit of an 'old school' catholic tho. I go to mass in Latin. As far as I know limbo is a place of natural happiness where unbaptised babies go. However at the end of the world there will just be heaven and hell. No Limbo and no Purgetory. I may be wrong about limbo. But if I'm not the babies will end up in heaven anyway. That's why I got my Ds's baptised ASAP when then were born, within 2 weeks. I knew if anything happened to them they would go straight to heaven. I also taught my Dh how to baptise, he isn't catholic, bec if I was unconscious and the baby was in danger he could baptise them and they would be ok.

One way for these souls to get to heaven more quickly if for those still alive on earth to pray for them. The souls in heaven can do nothing themselves to get to heaven quicker.

Anyone else think that is unjust? So if you're famous/popular you can hope to get more prayers and an easier time than someone dying alone and friendless.

Can you still pay someone to pray for you like they used to or has god put a stop to that.

Pope abolished Limbo

He didn't so much abolish it as point out that it was never there before. Limbo was just an idea someone thought of that sounded better than the alternative. It was never part of catholic doctrine.

Limbo was 'abolished' (don't think that's the right word - sorry, I'm not a Catholic, just interested; I mean, it was declared no longer official Catholic doctrine) a few years ago. Unless I have misunderstood more modern Catholic doctrine (I know more about the historical aspect), then Limbo was considered to be a part of Hell, in the sense that the souls in Limbo were necessarily cut off from God by their Original Sin, which had not been washed away by baptism. In Catholic teaching there were two Limbos: the Limbus Patrum (i.e. of the Fathers) where the good souls from the OT waited for Christ to go down into Hell and release them after his death (this is known as the Harrowing of Hell), after which they could enter Heaven in fulfilment of the 'old' covenant that God had made with the Jewish people; and the Limbus Puerorum (i.e. of infants) which was where the souls of unbaptised children - who had died before they had been able to commit any individual sins, but who were, nonetheless, 'stained' by Original Sin - were held for eternity. Originally Limbo was held to be 'Hell' insofar as it was totally cut off from God (although it was also 'not Hell' in the sense that it was not a place of physical punishment), but I think that, in the intervening centuries, a 'gentler' approach to the ultimate fate of unbaptised infants had come in (as heather suggests).

I am not a Catholic, and I don't believe in Purgatory as a place, but I am a Christian. When I pray for the dead I am praying more in acknowledgement of my own inability to know what awaits us after death. I believe that God knows and cares about those for whom I pray, but so unknowable is that state that I want to pray along the lines of 'Lord, please hold in your love these people whom I have loved and continue to love'. I also pray for those affected by the death of a loved-one, asking God to be with them in their mourning and to give them strength.

Going back to the OP, I believe that most often, when there is talk of prayers being offered after a tragedy, the prayers are more general - for all affected by the tragedy: those injured, those bereaved, for the emergency service, etc. These prayers may include prayers for the dead in the specific sense discussed above, but as part of a broader public acknowledgement of the severity of the event.

X-posted with BoB...

Yours was better :) I only remembered the news headline. I didn't know there were two either.

You can certainly have masses said for the souls of the dead. You do not pay, there is no charge, although it is of course a common courtesy to put something towards the church's upkeep (.sometimes this might feel a bit confused but the principle isn't or shouldn't be).

And God in his mercy knows what happens to the souls of the friendless. Mary, the BVM, was very clear that he would lift up the poor and the rich he would turn empty away.

So it is in his hands.

If the cathedral is the pisky one, Episcopalian, then it is quite likely that the item was that prayers would be said there, but it would prob have been for the dying and their families and the community, not nec for the dead themselves.

I lost a dear friend to suicide some years ago. At the time I was with a Catholic boyfriend. Our local priest said a mass for my friend. Even though I'm an atheist, I found it incredibly comforting to have people who didn't know my friend sending her prayers, despite not having a belief.

Outside of the Catholic church I think it's fairly unusual to pray for the dead. We would give thanks for their life and pray for the relatives/friends left behind but not actually for the dead as such.

As a Catholic I pray for those who have died. I find it comforting but also pray in the hope of them being welcomed into God's presence (heaven).

I do believe in purgatory as well. I see purgatory as a place if preparation and reflection. If someone said to me that I was going to die this minute, I would be ashamed to enter God's presence. Not that I've committed huge sins, but like all of us, there are small things on a daily basis that I regret thinking or doing. I feel that I want a bit of time to prepare rather than God saying I'm not good enough yet.
Like going to any big event, I need to get myself ready. In this case spiritually.

Fascinating responses, thank-you so much for taking the time to answer. Does anyone have any thoughts about my second question, about the resurrection? Or does God exist outside of time, so it's a bit meaningless to think about the timing of when individual souls go to Him?

I think the honest answer to your second question about the resurrection is that we don't know. I often use a passage from Revelation 21 at funerals which is about the new heaven and new earth which I know is different from the idea that people go to to heaven when they die. I use it because it contains such wonderful words about a time when there will be no more tears and death and that God will be with us. The mechanics don't really worry me.

Glasgow Cathedral is within the Church of Scotland (it's also called the High Kirk). So when prayers for the dead are said it's more a thanksgiving for their lives and a kind of asking God to hold them in love. There are also a lot of prayers for those affected by the death of a loved one, that God will be near them, that they will feel His presence and that He will give the strength and comfort.

We don't believe in limbo or purgatory or anything like that, we mostly believe that God takes us to be with him when we die.